Circa not indicated with default (chicago) csl

Circa not indicated with default (chicago) csl

[Rik Kabel]

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First, thank you, John, for pointing me to the localization for BC/AD -> 
BCE/CE. That and modification of the original-date formatting resolved that 
issue.

In testing, I noticed that circa is not indicated when it should be.

This is handled properly by many available CSL files. It fails with the 
Chicago-based files I have tried, so it looks like an inherited problem. My 
understanding is that this should be indicated by a preceding roman <c.> or 
<ca.>, or a trailing <?>, perhaps in combination with <n.d.>, but I do not 
have a Chicago guide more recent than the twelfth, and that does not appear 
to deal with the issue.

The example below is poor. There should generally not be a need to cite 
classical works beyond the author, the work, and standard location (line 
number) information. But there are non-classical works with unclear but 
bounded dates, so...


MWE markdown:

---
references:
- id: One
  type: book
  author:
  - family: Writer
    given: Classical
  issued:
  - year: 2019
    circa: true
  original-date:
  - year: -300
    circa: true
  title: Accepted Title
  publisher: Academic Press
  publisher-place: Small City, England
...
[@One]

-- 
Rik

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Re: Circa not indicated with default (chicago) csl

[John MacFarlane]

First thing to determine is whether this is a problem
with chicago-author-date.csl, or with pandoc-citeproc's
handling of it.  Best way to do that is to try the
same csl with citeproc-js (zotero).

Rik Kabel <amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> First, thank you, John, for pointing me to the localization for BC/AD -> 
> BCE/CE. That and modification of the original-date formatting resolved that 
> issue.
>
> In testing, I noticed that circa is not indicated when it should be.
>
> This is handled properly by many available CSL files. It fails with the 
> Chicago-based files I have tried, so it looks like an inherited problem. My 
> understanding is that this should be indicated by a preceding roman <c.> or 
> <ca.>, or a trailing <?>, perhaps in combination with <n.d.>, but I do not 
> have a Chicago guide more recent than the twelfth, and that does not appear 
> to deal with the issue.
>
> The example below is poor. There should generally not be a need to cite 
> classical works beyond the author, the work, and standard location (line 
> number) information. But there are non-classical works with unclear but 
> bounded dates, so...
>
>
> MWE markdown:
>
> ---
> references:
> - id: One
>   type: book
>   author:
>   - family: Writer
>     given: Classical
>   issued:
>   - year: 2019
>     circa: true
>   original-date:
>   - year: -300
>     circa: true
>   title: Accepted Title
>   publisher: Academic Press
>   publisher-place: Small City, England
> ...
> [@One]
>
> -- 
> Rik
>
> -- 
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Re: Circa not indicated with default (chicago) csl

[Rik Kabel]

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Okay. I have now installed Zotero and played a bit with it. I will 
uninstall it soon.

The problem does appear to be in the csl file. In Zotero, after adding 
<issued: 2149?> as an extra to an arbitrarily chosen book, an APA6 citation 
includes <[c.2149]> while most Chicago citations show <2149>.

Examining the csl files, it is clear that the APA files have logic to 
process such dates, in the form of <if is-uncertain-date="issued"> and the 
Chicago files do not.

Recent discussion on a Zotero forum[1] suggests that this is a known 
problem. It is claimed there that it should work for Chicago full note, and 
indeed that does generate <[2149?]>, which is ugly, but it looks like the 
basic work is there from which beautification can proceed.

[1] <https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/comment/311871#Comment_311871>

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 6:08:40 PM UTC-5, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>
> First thing to determine is whether this is a problem 
> with chicago-author-date.csl, or with pandoc-citeproc's 
> handling of it.  Best way to do that is to try the 
> same csl with citeproc-js (zotero). 
>
> Rik Kabel <amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org <javascript:>> writes: 
>
> > First, thank you, John, for pointing me to the localization for BC/AD -> 
> > BCE/CE. That and modification of the original-date formatting resolved 
> that 
> > issue. 
> > 
> > In testing, I noticed that circa is not indicated when it should be. 
> > 
> > This is handled properly by many available CSL files. It fails with the 
> > Chicago-based files I have tried, so it looks like an inherited problem. 
> My 
> > understanding is that this should be indicated by a preceding roman <c.> 
> or 
> > <ca.>, or a trailing <?>, perhaps in combination with <n.d.>, but I do 
> not 
> > have a Chicago guide more recent than the twelfth, and that does not 
> appear 
> > to deal with the issue. 
> > 
> > The example below is poor. There should generally not be a need to cite 
> > classical works beyond the author, the work, and standard location (line 
> > number) information. But there are non-classical works with unclear but 
> > bounded dates, so... 
> > 
> > 
> > MWE markdown: 
> > 
> > --- 
> > references: 
> > - id: One 
> >   type: book 
> >   author: 
> >   - family: Writer 
> >     given: Classical 
> >   issued: 
> >   - year: 2019 
> >     circa: true 
> >   original-date: 
> >   - year: -300 
> >     circa: true 
> >   title: Accepted Title 
> >   publisher: Academic Press 
> >   publisher-place: Small City, England 
> > ... 
> > [@One] 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Rik 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <javascript:>. 
> > To post to this group, send email to pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org 
> <javascript:>. 
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/4a2266f5-e7e8-4b89-990c-ce5c51d1d24d%40googlegroups.com. 
>
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>

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