From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/13552 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Staal Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:29:59 -0400 Message-ID: <13393D201344655C5B10B6A5@[192.168.1.50]> References: <20150829140403.GA47273@MacBook-Air.local> <20150829142113.GA47586@MacBook-Air.local> <55E35446.2000009@web.de> <55E498FA.90500@web.de> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441049410 7989 80.91.229.3 (31 Aug 2015 19:30:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:30:10 +0000 (UTC) To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCGYLPE23UARBOGWSKXQKGQEMG2RCOI-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mon Aug 31 21:30:02 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-ob0-f184.google.com ([209.85.214.184]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWUmH-0004Gb-0l for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 21:30:01 +0200 Original-Received: by obkg7 with SMTP id g7sf34707904obk.1 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=+WeVMqX8qjGXVYawBqdy8QkxR0AvRTN2yJLl4kFVIhY=; b=BaCSHQXg6NM98r7RoNumK3HA6aHJBkv0dzlF5tE/B87AbCeBYYyAKfQeFL9KYpHzPU P5Wi+T1DmBJgHonLcqd6WTz85nOVFupWbZXrWpZLBGfgAh++P3YftvwBwsIH+EfLCLAT vkF9hQEdmmmJ6+OQ0Dhb7G6QY6Z+qmmf1TNVqqEU0zknNdwC3osAH4Ib5Fly9y6MypP5 2L/liHYBL2UpKA+kzofGNFGDxTc+iEZ53jEaHvuINWEJe++A1M2UCHOYU/PH176xw5YV 7/XppRRM6GNcKqX84xJAfeYIo+R9ENYaPmM/HeApwQRApMwuz+GT6cH6Nmcuev X-Received: by 10.50.50.148 with SMTP id c20mr4747igo.6.1441049400878; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.50.109.225 with SMTP id hv1ls923322igb.18.gmail; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.138.43 with SMTP id qn11mr26373324pab.8.1441049400256; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from mail.magehandbook.com (173-8-4-45-WashingtonDC.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [173.8.4.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w140si445037ywd.2.2015.08.31.12.30.00 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 173.8.4.45 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of DStaal-Jdbf3xiKgS8@public.gmane.org) client-ip=173.8.4.45; Original-Received: from [192.168.1.50] (Mac-Pro.magehandbook.com [192.168.1.50]) by mail.magehandbook.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3n4hSR5Ml0zCv for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2015 15:29:59 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <55E498FA.90500-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) Content-Disposition: inline X-Original-Sender: DStaal-Jdbf3xiKgS8@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 173.8.4.45 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of DStaal-Jdbf3xiKgS8@public.gmane.org) smtp.mailfrom=DStaal-Jdbf3xiKgS8@public.gmane.org; dmarc=fail (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=usa.net Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:13552 Archived-At: --As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodr=C3=ADguez is alleged t= o=20 have said: > On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote: >> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for >> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that >> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are >> orthogonal. > > Many thanks for your reply, BPJ. > > Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I > was writing a manual in Spanish, but I=E2=80=99m afraid Markdown is too > complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging. > > Probably I=E2=80=99m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word > proccessing programs for average users. Probably true. There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but=20 pandoc isn't an editor. It's a converter. The editors give you a nice=20 WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts to= =20 common markup. >> In principle we could use any markup to signal "the >> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independent >> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!) >> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div >> solution is a good one, semantically speaking. > > I didn=E2=80=99t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speaki= ng. > > My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people. > Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement > bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user. Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs. Headers don't= =20 create new sections. (Well, there is an option to make them create such,= =20 but semantically and under normal use I've often seen headers within a=20 section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text.) They=20 often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always. > Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should > be an easy task. Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent. ;) This 'visible' marker=20 (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text=20 instead. Depending on what the text was, basically. Which will eventually= =20 surprise someone. (And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers=20 automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the markup.) > The problem I see with Markdown (and I=E2=80=99m afraid CommonMark doesn= =E2=80=99t > solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people. > > The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines. > Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with > titles? I honestly think you're over-thinking this. Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text. *Don't* try to= =20 explain them in terms of paragraphs. Simply say that a titles are a single= =20 line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title. A paragraph is any consecutive non-empty lines that *aren't* something=20 else. That 'something else' could be a title, or a list, or a table, or a= =20 code block, or a line block, or a quote block, or anything else that I'm=20 missing or gets implemented in the future. (Some of which can contain=20 paragraphs, of course.) We usually shorten it because people tend to=20 understand 'this is a paragraph, and this is how you do $X instead of a=20 paragraph' quite well. > It is a consistent rule for computers (in fact they are two). But The > previous rule isn=E2=80=99t consistent for persons. I just listed seven. ;) Or one, depending on how you look at it. And that's really my point: You're looking at it as seven, when really it's= =20 the one. You're the one trying to go top-down and define it the=20 complicated way. > Sorry, this is the reason I want to use pandoc, but I won=E2=80=99t try t= o > explain unnecessarily complicated exceptions. But the exceptions are the rule: A paragraph is what isn't something else.= =20 *Everything* is an exception. And that's really what makes Markdown and=20 CommonMark clean: You only mark up what needs to be differentiated from the= =20 main text. In the end, if you don't want exceptions, you end up with something like=20 XML, which has a lot of visual noise because *everything* has to be covered= =20 in the 'normal' case. Daniel T. Staal --------------------------------------------------------------- This email copyright the author. Unless otherwise noted, you are expressly allowed to retransmit, quote, or otherwise use the contents for non-commercial purposes. This copyright will expire 5 years after the author's death, or in 30 years, whichever is longer, unless such a period is in excess of local copyright law. --------------------------------------------------------------- --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. 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