AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[<denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>]

Hi,

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change the attribute
> punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style to 'false'. That will
> disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
> 
> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want to defeat
> this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
> 
> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only affect
> citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall at the moment why I
> implemented it this way.

I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed for switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?

FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by Rik:

> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, US practice supports both.
> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.

This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically aware punctuation moving mechanism (see https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, with the first implementation about here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html
There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or less) on this:

>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
 > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>
> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines,
> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside
> the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html)

I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.

Denis


> If someone wants to put up an issue at
> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, I'll look
> into it.
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-
> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/1b63b1d8bacf454e9db84a056d06a00f%40unibe.ch.