From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/28703 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? 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[130.92.0.84]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x10si766480ejy.0.2021.06.28.11.57.56 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 28 Jun 2021 11:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org designates 130.92.0.84 as permitted sender) client-ip=130.92.0.84; X-Virus-Scanned: By University of Bern - MGW Original-Received: from mail.campus.unibe.ch (aai-edge-04.campus.unibe.ch [130.92.13.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhub-lb3.unibe.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0C0E50007C; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 20:57:55 +0200 (CEST) Thread-Topic: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? Thread-Index: AQHXabaRoJKZIiGTgU+oMGWVDbmfRKspj18AgAA36sA= In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-CH, en-US Content-Language: de-DE x-originating-ip: [130.92.13.161] X-Original-Sender: denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org designates 130.92.0.84 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=unibe.ch Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:28703 Archived-At: Hi, > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org > Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane > Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22 > An: William Lupton ; pandoc-discuss > > Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? >=20 >=20 > In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change the a= ttribute > punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style to 'false'. That = will > disable all punctuation moving around quotes. >=20 > Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want to de= feat > this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space. >=20 > I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only affect > citations, not other parts of the document. I can't recall at the moment= why I > implemented it this way. I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons: 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc. 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed f= or switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right? FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, whic= h will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable w= hich punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by Ri= k: > US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a qu= otation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that the= large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?=E2=80= =9D). So, US practice supports both. > Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default posi= tion (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content. This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically aw= are punctuation moving mechanism (see https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issue= s/6 and already https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354). Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, with= the first implementation about here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/em= acs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or less= ) on this: > "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines, > according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside > the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs= -orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html) I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit f= or pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here. Denis > If someone wants to put up an issue at > https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues > requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, I'l= l look > into it. >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc- > discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/1b63b1d8bacf454e9db84a056d06a00f%40unibe.ch.