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[74.82.3.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w17sm13977629pgm.18.2016.12.16.13.01.33 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:01:33 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by johnmacfarlane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 01AB7A167; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:01:23 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-PGP-Key: http://johnmacfarlane.net/jgm.asc X-Original-Sender: jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@berkeley-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:16453 Archived-At: There are lots of people who post to the issue tracker things like: why can't you support feature X in Source Format? It renders in Target Format like so... They often don't realize that in order to do this, we'd have to make feature X representable in the AST, and that would mean handling it in every reader and every writer. I think that's the kind of thing Kolen is referring to. +++ BP Jonsson [Dec 16 16 16:39 ]: > TL;DR: I see no reason to require that a logo reflects aspects of the > project beyond the basic public interface, and absolutely no reason to > make a logo design unnecessarily complex for such a reason, because > there shouldn't be any pressure on users to get involved beyond the > public interface, except as and when they feel the need themselves. > I've been thinking a bit more about this and I wonder what kinds of > misunderstandings of the model you are thinking of. The closest thing I > have seen on this list and on StackExchange has been users getting > bitten by this or that feature of LaTeX or RestructuredText not being > representable in the current AST format. I wouldn't call that > misunderstanding of the model but rather ignorance of what structural > elements of supported markup formats *the current implementation of the > model* can or cannot represent. That's not even limitations of the > model but limitations of the current implementation which could be > removed[^1] in a future implementation. I would argue that if they were > removed most users would just say "phew, finally pandoc supports my > favorite markup feature" without caring about what changes in the > implementation, let alone the model, have made it possible. That is as > it should be. Users should not be required, prodded or even expected to > understand the engineering behind an application, only the public > interface. What sets open source apart is that users *may* explore, > understand and get involved in the engineering, even are invited to do > so, but there should be no pressure to do so. Even those who do get > involved usually only do so as and when they are able and willing to > enhance their own use of the product, or for their own gratification, > and that's entirely as it should be. Myself I'm still a total Haskell > illiterate, confining my contributions, and hence also my > understanding, to filterland. I have gotten rather involved in Jakob's > Perl filter support project, but that's in the end also helping myself > to write filters in my preferred language. To be sure I have written > some filters in response to requests on this list, but naturally that > has been as and when I have had, or got, an interest in the > functionality requested. Otherwise I have only more or less > successfully requested John or others to add features I have needed. > That may change some day but there are hundreds if not thousands of > users out there who don't even get to the level where I am, and that's > entirely legitimate. > [^1]: NB I'm saying "could", not "should", but I'm thinking that even > without extending the current set of AST elements some unsupported > input format constructs could optionally be turned into Div, Span or > link elements with certain attributes by the readers so that they could > be handled with filters or turned back into their original constructs > by the corresponding writers -- optionally, since those attributes > containers would clutter the markdown output. That's another discussion > however! > /bpj > > Den 16 dec 2016 00:55 skrev "BP Jonsson" <[1]bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>: > > You may see the =E2=88=80 in the middle as representing the =E2=88=80= ST around which > the conversion between different input and output formats revolves! > :-) > /bpj > Den 2016-12-15 kl. 01:40, skrev Kolen Cheung: > > On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:45:41 AM UTC-8, BP wrote: > To a normal user (I.e. you aren=E2=80=99t a Pandoc contributor or fil= ter > author) > the AST is an implementation detail which you don=E2=80=99t interact = with. > The > normal user experience is pandoc -f markdown -t html`, i.e. you > input a > document in one markup format and get (a file) in anotheir markup > format > (possibly zipped together with sundry other files) as output, > without any > intermediate file or files. There is no point in creating a false > impression that there always must be an intermediate file. In fact > that may > scare off potential normal users. To them the thing which sets > pandoc apart > from other light markup processors is that it supports conversion > back and > forth between multiple markup formats, and the logo should emphasize > that. > The logo needs to be intelligible and meaningful to the less geeky > users > which hopefully are in majority. > /bpj > It certainly is another possible perspective. So let me illustrate > more on > my perspective: > 1. > There are countless examples of expectation from end-users > (including > me) that originated from the misunderstanding of what pandoc is > and what > pandoc does. Rather than trying not to =E2=80=9Cscare off potentia= l > normal users=E2=80=9D > (which is unlikely to happen from a logo alone, since they won=E2= =80=99t > understand > the nuance in it at first sight), may be we should set the > expectation > right as early as possible, so that they won=E2=80=99t be disappoi= nted > later on, > and will not waste time to use pandoc for the wrong task. > 2. > The logo having arrows pointing to a common element representing > AST > will not make a real difference on first sight. But it would be a > great > =E2=80=9Centry point=E2=80=9D to talk about the philosophy behind = pandoc. Having > a 2nd > layer of sophistication means intelligible and meaningful to me. > (i.e. at > first sight you get something, but there=E2=80=99s a deeper story = behind > it.) > - To further illustrate on this point, at first glance, pandoc > seems > very similar to some other tool, e.g. MultiMarkdown. But as > one pushes the > tools further, they will realize pandoc is much deeper than > what it seems > like at first glance. So, if the logo can have layers of > meaning, it > represents pandoc better. > I don=E2=80=99t mean it has to be done this way. I mean if there=E2= =80=99s arrows, > arrows > pointing to a common element is more correct and deeper, and doesn=E2= =80=99t > really > scare off people (may actually attract the right people), and is a > path > worth explore. But if no design makes this looks good and natural, > we need > not to force it. > =E2=80=8B > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to [2]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To post to this group, send email to > [3]pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > [4]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/29dbdf52-29 > 4b-b6a9-b598-ea742b5d4afb%40gmail.com. > For more options, visit [5]https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to [6]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To post to this group, send email to > [7]pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > [8]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuRfJ_8rEtGqxJ > vnWudMKT%2Bpgm8Go_cqoQ9TMDcN%2BqnsBA%40mail.gmail.com. > For more options, visit [9]https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > >References > > 1. mailto:bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org > 2. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org > 3. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org > 4. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/29dbdf52-294b-b6a9-= b598-ea742b5d4afb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org > 5. https://groups.google.com/d/optout > 6. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org > 7. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org > 8. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuRfJ_8rEtGqxJ= vnWudMKT+pgm8Go_cqoQ9TMDcN+qnsBA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sour= ce=3Dfooter > 9. https://groups.google.com/d/optout --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. 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