Ancient Greek in output PDF

Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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I was helping a friend use pandoc to go from markdown to PDF on a Mac. His 
problem was that the default PDF output couldn't handle the Greek 
characters. The problem was solved by switching the font in either the 
default.latex file or within the md document with 
 \setmainfont{Baskerville}

I'm concluding that the default PDF output font (Latin Modern Roman?) 
doesn't have these characters, whereas Baskerville (among others) does.

Is this right? Is there another way to solve this within the default setup?

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John MacFarlane]

Yes, that's probably right.  Most fonts don't have a
complete set of Unicode glyphs.

+++ John Muccigrosso [Jan 19 17 08:08 ]:
>   I was helping a friend use pandoc to go from markdown to PDF on a Mac.
>   His problem was that the default PDF output couldn't handle the Greek
>   characters. The problem was solved by switching the font in either the
>   default.latex file or within the md document with
>    \setmainfont{Baskerville}
>   I'm concluding that the default PDF output font (Latin Modern Roman?)
>   doesn't have these characters, whereas Baskerville (among others) does.
>   Is this right? Is there another way to solve this within the default
>   setup?
>
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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 2:14:33 PM UTC-5, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> Yes, that's probably right.  Most fonts don't have a 
> complete set of Unicode glyphs. 
>

Thanks, John. For those that like the look, what's the closest font that 
does have this particular set? Or is there an easy(-ish) way to get the 
font to switch automatically for a certain range of characters or a 
language? (I'm almost completely latex incompetent.) 

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John MacFarlane]

+++ John Muccigrosso [Jan 19 17 20:33 ]:
>   On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 2:14:33 PM UTC-5, John MacFarlane
>   wrote:
>
>     Yes, that's probably right.  Most fonts don't have a
>     complete set of Unicode glyphs.
>
>   Thanks, John. For those that like the look, what's the closest font
>   that does have this particular set? Or is there an easy(-ish) way to
>   get the font to switch automatically for a certain range of characters
>   or a language? (I'm almost completely latex incompetent.)

I'm probably not the best person to ask, but there are
people on this list who work quite a bit with Greek in
documents and might have tips.

Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 01/19/2017 05:08 PM, John Muccigrosso wrote:
> I was helping a friend use pandoc to go from markdown to PDF on a Mac.
> His problem was that the default PDF output couldn't handle the Greek
> characters.
> [...]
> I'm concluding that the default PDF output font (Latin Modern Roman?)
> doesn't have these characters, whereas Baskerville (among others) does.

Sorry for my delayed reply, John.

The Latin Modern typeface only contains Latin glyphs.

> Is this right? Is there another way to solve this within the default setup?

https://cm-unicode.sf.net contains Computer Modern fonts in OpenType
format. The following should work:

    \setmainfont{CMU Serif}

Even defining a fallaback font for Greek characters should be easy with
fontspec. But I haven’t used LaTeX for years and I don’t remember how to
do it.

I hope it helps,

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 12:35:08 PM UTC-5, ousia wrote:
>
> On 01/19/2017 05:08 PM, John Muccigrosso wrote: 
> > I was helping a friend use pandoc to go from markdown to PDF on a Mac. 
> > His problem was that the default PDF output couldn't handle the Greek 
> > characters. 
> > [...] 
> > I'm concluding that the default PDF output font (Latin Modern Roman?) 
> > doesn't have these characters, whereas Baskerville (among others) does. 
>
> Sorry for my delayed reply, John. 
>
> The Latin Modern typeface only contains Latin glyphs. 
>
> > Is this right? Is there another way to solve this within the default 
> setup? 
>
> https://cm-unicode.sf.net contains Computer Modern fonts in OpenType 
> format. The following should work: 
>
>     \setmainfont{CMU Serif} 
>
> Even defining a fallaback font for Greek characters should be easy with 
> fontspec. But I haven’t used LaTeX for years and I don’t remember how to 
> do it. 
>
 
Thanks. I found them here: http://cm-unicode.sourceforge.net 

It looks like the CMU Serif is (nearly) identical to Latin Modern Roman.

I have a default.latex that sets my own fonts, but I think I'll modify it 
to be sensitive to main font being set in the YAML.


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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 12:35:08 PM UTC-5, ousia wrote:
>
> Even defining a fallaback font for Greek characters should be easy with 
> fontspec. But I haven’t used LaTeX for years and I don’t remember how to 
> do it. 
>
>
A quick look at the font spec docs didn't help me much. I think ideally I'd 
like to be able to use something like \setgreekfont{blah} and have it use 
that font whenever there's some continuous text using the Greek section of 
Unicode.

That might be too much to ask though. 

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 01/24/2017 08:15 PM, John Muccigrosso wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 12:35:08 PM UTC-5, ousia wrote:
> 
>     Even defining a fallaback font for Greek characters should be easy with
>     fontspec. But I haven’t used LaTeX for years and I don’t remember
>     how to
>     do it.
> 
> A quick look at the font spec docs didn't help me much. I think ideally
> I'd like to be able to use something like \setgreekfont{blah} and have
> it use that font whenever there's some continuous text using the Greek
> section of Unicode.

polyglossia has the following command:

    \newfontfamily\greekfont[Script=Greek,⟨...⟩]{⟨font⟩}

I have copied it from section 4 from the documentation
(http://mirrors.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/polyglossia/polyglossia.pdf#page=6).

I hope it helps,


Pablo
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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[Scot Mcphee]

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I specify Times New Roman as my font (on a Mac) and get Classical Attic without any discernible problems as yet with xelatex:

/usr/local/bin/pandoc -f markdown -t latex -V geometry:margin=4cm -V fontsize=12pt -V papersize=a4paper -V documentclass=memoir -V classoption=oneside -V classoption=article -V mainfont='Times New Roman’  --smart --standalone --latex-engine=xelatex

Scot


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> On 25 Jan 2017, at 04:53 , John Muccigrosso <jmuccigr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 12:35:08 PM UTC-5, ousia wrote:
> On 01/19/2017 05:08 PM, John Muccigrosso wrote: 
> > I was helping a friend use pandoc to go from markdown to PDF on a Mac. 
> > His problem was that the default PDF output couldn't handle the Greek 
> > characters. 
> > [...] 
> > I'm concluding that the default PDF output font (Latin Modern Roman?) 
> > doesn't have these characters, whereas Baskerville (among others) does. 
> 
> Sorry for my delayed reply, John. 
> 
> The Latin Modern typeface only contains Latin glyphs. 
> 
> > Is this right? Is there another way to solve this within the default setup? 
> 
> https://cm-unicode.sf.net <https://cm-unicode.sf.net/> contains Computer Modern fonts in OpenType 
> format. The following should work: 
> 
>     \setmainfont{CMU Serif} 
> 
> Even defining a fallaback font for Greek characters should be easy with 
> fontspec. But I haven’t used LaTeX for years and I don’t remember how to 
> do it. 
>  
> Thanks. I found them here: http://cm-unicode.sourceforge.net 
> 
> It looks like the CMU Serif is (nearly) identical to Latin Modern Roman.
> 
> I have a default.latex that sets my own fonts, but I think I'll modify it to be sensitive to main font being set in the YAML.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[BP Jonsson]

Please excuse me for not noticing this thread until now!

Den 2017-01-24 kl. 20:15, skrev John Muccigrosso:
> 
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2017 at 12:35:08 PM UTC-5, ousia wrote:
>>
>> Even defining a fallaback font for Greek characters should be easy with 
>> fontspec. But I haven’t used LaTeX for years and I don’t remember how to 
>> do it. 
>>
>>
> A quick look at the font spec docs didn't help me much. I think ideally I'd 
> like to be able to use something like \setgreekfont{blah} and have it use 
> that font whenever there's some continuous text using the Greek section of 
> Unicode.
> 
> That might be too much to ask though. 

In fact you can, at least assuming that you use XeLaTeX, which is a good idea anyway.  
The easiest way would be to include the necessary LaTeX commands in the document metadata:

```
---
header-includes:
    # Hide command with non-standard arg structure so pandoc doesn't mess it up!
  - \newcommand{\NoPandoc}[1]{#1}
  - \NoPandoc{\newfontfamily\greekfont{GFS Didot}[Script=Greek,Scale=MatchLowercase]}
...

## Tetrapharmacus

| Don't fear god,
| Don't worry about death;
| What is good is easy to get,
| What is terrible is easy to endure


## [Τετραφάρμακος]{lang="grc"}

<div lang="grc">

| Ἄφοβον ὁ θεός,
| ἀνύποπτον ὁ θάνατος
| καὶ τἀγαθὸν μὲν εὔκτητον,
| τὸ δὲ δεινὸν εὐεκκαρτέρητον

</div>

```

(You said that you want the Computer/Latin Modern style, and GFS Didot <http://www.greekfontsociety.gr/typefaces/20th_21st_century#GFS_Didot> is a Greek font in Modern style which you probably will find blends well with Latin Modern. As it happens Greek Modern fonts are usually not as extremely Modern as their Latin counterparts, but who are we to argue with Firmin Didot what a Greek Modern font should look like!? :-)

Now run pandoc with `--latexengine=xelatex` and everythiing should take care of itself.

Including code for setting the Greek font in your template is also relatively straightforward. Look for the place in the default LaTeX template where the polyglossia package is loaded:


```
\else
  \usepackage{polyglossia}
  \setmainlanguage[$polyglossia-lang.options$]{$polyglossia-lang.name$}
$for(polyglossia-otherlangs)$
  \setotherlanguage[$polyglossia-otherlangs.options$]{$polyglossia-otherlangs.name$}
$endfor$
\fi
```

and just before the `\fi` insert the following:

```
$if(greekfont)$
  \newfontfamily\greekfont{$greekfont$}[Script=Greek,Scale=MatchLowercase]
$endif$
```

Then you can use `-V greekfont='Font Name'` on the command line or `greekfont: Font Name` in the document metadata to specify the Greek font.

Since I use several languages using different fonts in my documents I have included a more general mechanism in my LaTeX template:

```
$for(lang-fonts)$
  \newfontfamily\$lang-fonts.lang$font{$lang-fonts.font$}[$if(lang-fonts.language)$Language=$lang-fonts.language$$endif$$if(lang-fonts.script)$Script=$lang-fonts.script$$endif$$if(lang-fonts.options)$$lang-fonts.options$$else$Scale=MatchLowercase$endif$]
$endfor$
```

(BTW the `\$` in that template code may throw your editor's highlighting if you use LaTeX highlighting. The solution is to comment out that line while editing the rest of the template.)

Then in my metadata I say:

```
lang-fonts:
  - lang: greek
    font: GFS Neohellenic
    script: Greek
    language: Greek
```

The multiplication of parameters is polyglossia's and fontspec's fault. You must use their terms here unlike when loading languages where pandoc does some streamlining behind the scenes.

(I use GFS Neohellenic together with Charis SIL.  While it looks quite different it blends well. If I don't need any fancy characters in sans I usually set GFS Neohellenic as the sans font too.)

/bpj

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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Thanks for all the input on this.

The only drawback I see here is that you have to clearly mark out the Greek 
in your markdown, whereas, if you're happy with the appearance of the Greek 
characters in your chosen font, you don't have to do anything and they just 
appear. (The impetus for my question came from someone wanting - I think - 
to turn fairly simple text files into nice-looking PDFs automatically.)

Here's my ideal (I think): pandoc is smart enough to see a block of Greek 
text and your Greek font gets applied to it. That seems a bit unlikely, but 
I wonder how hard it would be to create a filter that uses regex to look 
for Greek text and surround it with the appropriate tags.

PS I'm playing with Theano Didot a bit. My own needs so far don't require a 
lot of worrying about Greek texts, but you never know!

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[Melroch]

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In general you do want to mark Greek text as such in order to get the
benefits of activating script specific hyphenation and Opentype features
through the folktale `Script=Greek` option.

You would perhaps find the ucharclasses package handy,

<https://www.ctan.org/pkg/ucharclasses>

although in my experience it introduces more headache than a simple search
for stretches of Greek characters in a Unicode and regular expression
capable editor. You can easily wrap all stretches of Greek text in the
correct markup with a Perl script, thanks to Perl's support of Unicode
properties in regular expressions but it will need to be able to include
and exclude whitespace and punctuation in a smart way, and to skip over
Greek text in link titles, embedded TeX or HTML and element attributes if
any. I have a script which can handle punctuation, whitespace, HTML and
attributes rather well but unfortunately I'm at present several kilometers
away from the computer where it resides. A search through my Dropbox didn't
find it.

/bpj


Den 26 jan 2017 01:51 skrev "John Muccigrosso" <jmuccigr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> Thanks for all the input on this.
>
> The only drawback I see here is that you have to clearly mark out the
> Greek in your markdown, whereas, if you're happy with the appearance of the
> Greek characters in your chosen font, you don't have to do anything and
> they just appear. (The impetus for my question came from someone wanting -
> I think - to turn fairly simple text files into nice-looking PDFs
> automatically.)
>
> Here's my ideal (I think): pandoc is smart enough to see a block of Greek
> text and your Greek font gets applied to it. That seems a bit unlikely, but
> I wonder how hard it would be to create a filter that uses regex to look
> for Greek text and surround it with the appropriate tags.
>
> PS I'm playing with Theano Didot a bit. My own needs so far don't require
> a lot of worrying about Greek texts, but you never know!
>
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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 01/26/2017 01:50 AM, John Muccigrosso wrote:
> The only drawback I see here is that you have to clearly mark out the
> Greek in your markdown, whereas, if you're happy with the appearance of
> the Greek characters in your chosen font, you don't have to do anything
> and they just appear. (The impetus for my question came from someone
> wanting - I think - to turn fairly simple text files into nice-looking
> PDFs automatically.)

You don’t need language tagging in the source text for PDF generation
either with LaTeX or with ConTeXt.

A fallback font works exactly like that: you define the typeface you
need for the Unicode ranges you need (Greek and Greek extended being
just two of them). I provided the right command for polyglossia.

If hyphenation is also desired, in ConTeXt you may load different
hyphenation patterns for one language, such as in:

    \setuplanguage[en][patterns={en, agr}]
    \setupbodyfont[dejavu]
    \starttext
    \hyphenatedword{processor μηχανή}

    \hyphenatedword{processor \agr μηχανή}
    \stoptext

Altought you have the same minimal number of letters for the first and
last hyphen in the word as the “parent” language (as shown in the second
line).

You might achieve this in LaTeX too.

> Here's my ideal (I think): pandoc is smart enough to see a block of
> Greek text and your Greek font gets applied to it. That seems a bit
> unlikely, but I wonder how hard it would be to create a filter that uses
> regex to look for Greek text and surround it with the appropriate tags.

If the filter is required for PDF generation only, I think it isn’t
required. I would love to have proper language tagging in pandoc-2.0,
such as in:

    [καλόν]{:grc} means “beautiful”.

I mean, :lang is way more useful for real language mixing. Of course, I
may type [καλόν]{lang="grc"}, but this isn’t lightweight (see
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/895).

Just in case it helps,


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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On Friday, January 27, 2017 at 12:00:38 PM UTC-5, ousia wrote:
>
> On 01/26/2017 01:50 AM, John Muccigrosso wrote: 
> > The only drawback I see here is that you have to clearly mark out the 
> > Greek in your markdown, whereas, if you're happy with the appearance of 
> > the Greek characters in your chosen font, you don't have to do anything 
> > and they just appear. (The impetus for my question came from someone 
> > wanting - I think - to turn fairly simple text files into nice-looking 
> > PDFs automatically.) 
>
> You don’t need language tagging in the source text for PDF generation 
> either with LaTeX or with ConTeXt. 
>
> A fallback font works exactly like that: you define the typeface you 
> need for the Unicode ranges you need (Greek and Greek extended being 
> just two of them). I provided the right command for polyglossia. 
>

Yes, you did, but unless I misunderstand, you still have to tag the 
passages you want the font to apply to, or at least it didn't work for me 
when I got rid of the tags.

Again, I may be doing this wrong.

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[Andrew Dunning]

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It works fine if,you set your main font to something including Greek, e.g. Brill. All you're missing in that case is correct hyphenation. Alternatively, you can set a font by Unicode range rather than language (it doesn't do this automatically).

It strikes me that what we really need is a filter that would tag languages in Pandoc output based on best guesses (Word does this to some extent already). Should theoretically be possible with the language detection libraries out there.

Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[BP Jonsson]

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The problem with doing language tagging with a filter in the current AST
model is that you do want to include inter-word spaces in the span but
exclude some punctuation, like brackets while including other punctuation
like dashes and quotes. Terminal punctuation (period, comma, (semi)colon,
exclamation/question mark) is very difficult: it should be included if the
whole sentence or paragraph is Greek but excluded if only one or two words
in an otherwise non-Greek sentence are Greek. I have an ugly hack of a perl
script which currently does a half decent job of tagging parts of a text
file based on Unicode scripts with a monster regular expression. It can
even be told to skip code (inline and block), LaTeX environments and
commands and HTML tags, and spurred by this thread I spent some time
yesterday trying to improve it by skipping the parenthesized part of inline
links, but the results of running this script still need manual checking so
that it works almost as well or better to just search character spans with
certain Unicode ranges in a capable editor.

For languages written in the same script even more sophisticated language
detection software easily fail. For example with Swedish and Icelandic more
than half of the words in running text could be either language, but they
need different hyphenation rules.

/bpj

Den 28 jan 2017 20:29 skrev "Andrew Dunning" <andunning-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:

> It works fine if,you set your main font to something including Greek, e.g.
> Brill. All you're missing in that case is correct hyphenation.
> Alternatively, you can set a font by Unicode range rather than language (it
> doesn't do this automatically).
>
> It strikes me that what we really need is a filter that would tag
> languages in Pandoc output based on best guesses (Word does this to some
> extent already). Should theoretically be possible with the language
> detection libraries out there.
>
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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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On Saturday, January 28, 2017 at 2:29:14 PM UTC-5, Andrew Dunning wrote:
>
> It works fine if,you set your main font to something including Greek, e.g. 
> Brill. All you're missing in that case is correct hyphenation. 
> Alternatively, you can set a font by Unicode range rather than language (it 
> doesn't do this automatically).


Yes, exactly. I was wondering about the case where your preferred font 
either lacks the Greek (or whatever unicode range) entirely, or has Greek 
you don't like the look of.
 

> It strikes me that what we really need is a filter that would tag 
> languages in Pandoc output based on best guesses (Word does this to some 
> extent already). Should theoretically be possible with the language 
> detection libraries out there.
>

And that was the other part of my query. :-) 

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Re: Ancient Greek in output PDF

[John Muccigrosso]

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On Sunday, January 29, 2017 at 8:38:34 AM UTC-5, BP Jonsson wrote:
>
> The problem with doing language tagging with a filter in the current AST 
> model is that you do want to include inter-word spaces in the span but 
> exclude some punctuation, like brackets while including other punctuation 
> like dashes and quotes. Terminal punctuation (period, comma, (semi)colon, 
> exclamation/question mark) is very difficult: it should be included if the 
> whole sentence or paragraph is Greek but excluded if only one or two words 
> in an otherwise non-Greek sentence are Greek. I have an ugly hack of a perl 
> script which currently does a half decent job of tagging parts of a text 
> file based on Unicode scripts with a monster regular expression. It can 
> even be told to skip code (inline and block), LaTeX environments and 
> commands and HTML tags, and spurred by this thread I spent some time 
> yesterday trying to improve it by skipping the parenthesized part of inline 
> links, but the results of running this script still need manual checking so 
> that it works almost as well or better to just search character spans with 
> certain Unicode ranges in a capable editor.
>

Exactly. I was wondering if maybe using regex to grab in-line Greek that 
flanked either by quotation marks or spaces would work. (That's obviously 
oversimplified.) And all-Greek block quotes would also be included. 

>  
>

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