LaTeX and citation inside a footnote

LaTeX and citation inside a footnote

[Lyndon Drake]

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Hi,

I realised that the question of \cite has come up before, but I have a case 
that's quite common in my field and wondered what the best solution is. 
When writing with the SBL style guide, it's not uncommon to want to 
generate a footnote like this one:

5. Carl D. Gross, “Is There Any Interest in Nehemiah 5,” Scand. 
J.OldTestam. 11 (1997): 270–78, doi:10.1080/ 09018329708585120. Fensham 
translates as “Everyone of you imposes a burden (loan) on his brother,” but 
gives no philological commentary on this, perhaps because he reads the 
whole episode as being primarily about slavery rather than debt (Fensham, 
The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, 192).

Because footnotes are so common, this approach to summarising a 
parenthetical issue is also very common. In author-date citation styles 
(which I used to use for other work) you'd get the citation in the main 
paragraph body, and then a separate footnote, and hence no problems.

In LaTeX, the desired result can be generated by

\cite{Gross:1997}. Fensham blah blah \autocite[192]{Fensham1982}.

I don't know how to get the same effect from Pandoc. The problem is that 
the following:

^[@Gross:1997. Fensham blah blah [@Fensham:1982]]

turns the first into \textcite{}, which in the SBL style is set as:

Gross ("Is there…" …)

Which is what \textcite is supposed to do. \autocite{} produces instead 
(Gross, "Is there…" …), which also seems the best option — it parallels 
what one wants with \autocite in a non-footnote paragraph.

Is there any chance of altering the syntax slightly to allow other options 
in the conversion to LaTeX? What I'd really like is the ability to generate 
\cite{}, which would also be useful in other cases (e.g. one is writing a 
sentence in footnote text such as "For a bibliography, see Fensham, blah 
bah, 1982." where one does not want \parencite{}).

Or if anyone can suggest a workaround I'm open to ideas.

Best,
Lyndon

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Re: LaTeX and citation inside a footnote

[John MacFarlane]

I'm not sure I follow exactly.  But if you want two
\autocites, rather than a \textcite and an \autocite,
can't you just do this?

    ^[[@Gross:1997]. Fensham blah blah [@Fensham:1982]]



+++ Lyndon Drake [Jun 10 17 01:03 ]:
>   Hi,
>   I realised that the question of \cite has come up before, but I have a
>   case that's quite common in my field and wondered what the best
>   solution is. When writing with the SBL style guide, it's not uncommon
>   to want to generate a footnote like this one:
>   5. Carl D. Gross, “Is There Any Interest in Nehemiah 5,” Scand.
>   J.OldTestam. 11 (1997): 270–78, doi:10.1080/ 09018329708585120. Fensham
>   translates as “Everyone of you imposes a burden (loan) on his brother,”
>   but gives no philological commentary on this, perhaps because he reads
>   the whole episode as being primarily about slavery rather than debt
>   (Fensham, The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, 192).
>   Because footnotes are so common, this approach to summarising a
>   parenthetical issue is also very common. In author-date citation styles
>   (which I used to use for other work) you'd get the citation in the main
>   paragraph body, and then a separate footnote, and hence no problems.
>   In LaTeX, the desired result can be generated by
>   \cite{Gross:1997}. Fensham blah blah \autocite[192]{Fensham1982}.
>   I don't know how to get the same effect from Pandoc. The problem is
>   that the following:
>   ^[@Gross:1997. Fensham blah blah [@Fensham:1982]]
>   turns the first into \textcite{}, which in the SBL style is set as:
>   Gross ("Is there…" …)
>   Which is what \textcite is supposed to do. \autocite{} produces instead
>   (Gross, "Is there…" …), which also seems the best option — it parallels
>   what one wants with \autocite in a non-footnote paragraph.
>   Is there any chance of altering the syntax slightly to allow other
>   options in the conversion to LaTeX? What I'd really like is the ability
>   to generate \cite{}, which would also be useful in other cases (e.g.
>   one is writing a sentence in footnote text such as "For a bibliography,
>   see Fensham, blah bah, 1982." where one does not want \parencite{}).
>   Or if anyone can suggest a workaround I'm open to ideas.
>   Best,
>   Lyndon
>
>   --
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>   For more options, visit [4]https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>References
>
>   1. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>   2. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>   3. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/9bbfc142-2a0a-4f4d-b79f-0a6a103e654e-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>   4. https://groups.google.com/d/optout

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Re: LaTeX and citation inside a footnote

[Lyndon Drake]

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Yes, that would work, but what I need is \cite{} as the first one, followed 
by \autocite{}. What Pandoc gives is \textcite{}… \autocite{}. That 
produces a different result in SBL (or any Chicago-based footnote) BibLaTeX 
style. At the moment, as far as I can tell, there's no way to get Pandoc to 
generate a \cite{} command, which is what I need.

For some BibLaTeX the choice between \textcite{} and \autocite{} is 
sufficient to cover most use cases. But for the SBL style, it's very 
difficult to write without access to at least \cite{} as well, and I'm 
wondering whether you'd consider adding some syntax to allow \cite{} to be 
called.

Does that make more sense?

On Sunday, June 11, 2017 at 9:27:11 AM UTC+1, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> I'm not sure I follow exactly.  But if you want two 
> \autocites, rather than a \textcite and an \autocite, 
> can't you just do this? 
>
>     ^[[@Gross:1997]. Fensham blah blah [@Fensham:1982]] 
>
>
>
> +++ Lyndon Drake [Jun 10 17 01:03 ]: 
> >   Hi, 
> >   I realised that the question of \cite has come up before, but I have a 
> >   case that's quite common in my field and wondered what the best 
> >   solution is. When writing with the SBL style guide, it's not uncommon 
> >   to want to generate a footnote like this one: 
> >   5. Carl D. Gross, “Is There Any Interest in Nehemiah 5,” Scand. 
> >   J.OldTestam. 11 (1997): 270–78, doi:10.1080/ 09018329708585120. 
> Fensham 
> >   translates as “Everyone of you imposes a burden (loan) on his 
> brother,” 
> >   but gives no philological commentary on this, perhaps because he reads 
> >   the whole episode as being primarily about slavery rather than debt 
> >   (Fensham, The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, 192). 
> >   Because footnotes are so common, this approach to summarising a 
> >   parenthetical issue is also very common. In author-date citation 
> styles 
> >   (which I used to use for other work) you'd get the citation in the 
> main 
> >   paragraph body, and then a separate footnote, and hence no problems. 
> >   In LaTeX, the desired result can be generated by 
> >   \cite{Gross:1997}. Fensham blah blah \autocite[192]{Fensham1982}. 
> >   I don't know how to get the same effect from Pandoc. The problem is 
> >   that the following: 
> >   ^[@Gross:1997. Fensham blah blah [@Fensham:1982]] 
> >   turns the first into \textcite{}, which in the SBL style is set as: 
> >   Gross ("Is there…" …) 
> >   Which is what \textcite is supposed to do. \autocite{} produces 
> instead 
> >   (Gross, "Is there…" …), which also seems the best option — it 
> parallels 
> >   what one wants with \autocite in a non-footnote paragraph. 
> >   Is there any chance of altering the syntax slightly to allow other 
> >   options in the conversion to LaTeX? What I'd really like is the 
> ability 
> >   to generate \cite{}, which would also be useful in other cases (e.g. 
> >   one is writing a sentence in footnote text such as "For a 
> bibliography, 
> >   see Fensham, blah bah, 1982." where one does not want \parencite{}). 
> >   Or if anyone can suggest a workaround I'm open to ideas. 
> >   Best, 
> >   Lyndon 
> > 
> >   -- 
> >   You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> >   Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. 
> >   To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> >   an email to [1]pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <javascript:>. 
> >   To post to this group, send email to 
> >   [2]pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <javascript:>. 
> >   To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >   [3]
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/9bbfc142-2a0a-4f4d- 
> >   b79f-0a6a103e654e%40googlegroups.com. 
> >   For more options, visit [4]https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
> > 
> >References 
> > 
> >   1. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <javascript:> 
> >   2. mailto:pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <javascript:> 
> >   3. 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/9bbfc142-2a0a-4f4d-b79f-0a6a103e654e-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer 
> >   4. https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>
>

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Re: LaTeX and citation inside a footnote

[John MacFarlane]

It sounds too special-purpose to think about modifying
pandoc.  Remember, the primary purpose of the citation
syntax is to support pandoc-citeproc, not to generate
LaTeX/bibtex citations.  BibLaTeX is very expressive, and
there's no way we'll ever match that.  But maybe you could
explain better the difference between \cite and \autocite in
this context?

+++ Lyndon Drake [Jun 11 17 06:26 ]:
>   Yes, that would work, but what I need is \cite{} as the first one,
>   followed by \autocite{}. What Pandoc gives is \textcite{}… \autocite{}.
>   That produces a different result in SBL (or any Chicago-based footnote)
>   BibLaTeX style. At the moment, as far as I can tell, there's no way to
>   get Pandoc to generate a \cite{} command, which is what I need.
>   For some BibLaTeX the choice between \textcite{} and \autocite{} is
>   sufficient to cover most use cases. But for the SBL style, it's very
>   difficult to write without access to at least \cite{} as well, and I'm
>   wondering whether you'd consider adding some syntax to allow \cite{} to
>   be called.
>   Does that make more sense?
>   On Sunday, June 11, 2017 at 9:27:11 AM UTC+1, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>     I'm not sure I follow exactly.  But if you want two
>     \autocites, rather than a \textcite and an \autocite,
>     can't you just do this?
>         ^[[@Gross:1997]. Fensham blah blah [@Fensham:1982]]
>     +++ Lyndon Drake [Jun 10 17 01:03 ]:
>     >   Hi,
>     >   I realised that the question of \cite has come up before, but I
>     have a
>     >   case that's quite common in my field and wondered what the best
>     >   solution is. When writing with the SBL style guide, it's not
>     uncommon
>     >   to want to generate a footnote like this one:
>     >   5. Carl D. Gross, “Is There Any Interest in Nehemiah 5,” Scand.
>     >   J.OldTestam. 11 (1997): 270–78, doi:10.1080/ 09018329708585120.
>     Fensham
>     >   translates as “Everyone of you imposes a burden (loan) on his
>     brother,”
>     >   but gives no philological commentary on this, perhaps because he
>     reads
>     >   the whole episode as being primarily about slavery rather than
>     debt
>     >   (Fensham, The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, 192).
>     >   Because footnotes are so common, this approach to summarising a
>     >   parenthetical issue is also very common. In author-date citation
>     styles
>     >   (which I used to use for other work) you'd get the citation in
>     the main
>     >   paragraph body, and then a separate footnote, and hence no
>     problems.
>     >   In LaTeX, the desired result can be generated by
>     >   \cite{Gross:1997}. Fensham blah blah
>     \autocite[192]{Fensham1982}.
>     >   I don't know how to get the same effect from Pandoc. The problem
>     is
>     >   that the following:
>     >   ^[@Gross:1997. Fensham blah blah [@Fensham:1982]]
>     >   turns the first into \textcite{}, which in the SBL style is set
>     as:
>     >   Gross ("Is there…" …)
>     >   Which is what \textcite is supposed to do. \autocite{} produces
>     instead
>     >   (Gross, "Is there…" …), which also seems the best option — it
>     parallels
>     >   what one wants with \autocite in a non-footnote paragraph.
>     >   Is there any chance of altering the syntax slightly to allow
>     other
>     >   options in the conversion to LaTeX? What I'd really like is the
>     ability
>     >   to generate \cite{}, which would also be useful in other cases
>     (e.g.
>     >   one is writing a sentence in footnote text such as "For a
>     bibliography,
>     >   see Fensham, blah bah, 1982." where one does not want
>     \parencite{}).
>     >   Or if anyone can suggest a workaround I'm open to ideas.
>     >   Best,
>     >   Lyndon
>     >
>     >   --
>     >   You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>     Google
>     >   Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
>     >   To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>     it, send
>     >   an email to [1][1]pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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>     >   For more options, visit [4][5]https://groups.google.com/
>     d/optout.
>     >
>     >References
>     >
>     >   1. mailto:[6]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>     >   2. mailto:[7]pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>     >   3. [8]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/9bbfc142-
>     2a0a-4f4d-b79f-0a6a103e654e-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=
>     email&utm_source=footer
>     >   4. [9]https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>
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>
>References
>
>   1. javascript:/
>   2. javascript:/
>   3. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/9bbfc142-2a0a-4f4d-
>   4. http://40googlegroups.com/
>   5. https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>   6. javascript:/
>   7. javascript:/
>   8. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/9bbfc142-2a0a-4f4d-b79f-0a6a103e654e-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>   9. https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>  10. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>  11. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>  12. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/977df2ef-6b75-41e9-9511-48a746184a45-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>  13. https://groups.google.com/d/optout

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