From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/16422 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Kolen Cheung Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: RFC: Designing Logo of Pandoc Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:40:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30f01b4c-8b2c-481a-96f9-dfd0ba37e71a@googlegroups.com> References: <20151101194033.GC18654@Johns-MacBook-Pro.local> <3298337b-6214-4927-bca7-d33ccddca3fa@googlegroups.com> <87shpywqjj.fsf@fastmail.fm> <20161208125813.GA93986@Administrateurs-iMac-3.local> <49debf77-8594-487e-8c82-d92be13e9092@googlegroups.com> <92065ba0-cba5-2b43-92ae-1cf42e2618bd@gmail.com> <844cf7bd-c9f1-49e0-a1fd-81a827c9c667@googlegroups.com> <121f2a53-ddfe-46af-96b4-a03dcdbe80da@googlegroups.com> <20161209105407.GB96950@Administrateurs-iMac-3.local> <4f2fea29-9e58-a79a-0c49-1612844d5fa1@gmail.com> <5bba1098-d1c9-9d7e-0fbb-3914abd93364@gmail.com> <87zijzpfw0.fsf@espresso.zeitkraut.de> <8f87b3f6-41d0-47d7-a6fe-117892a30c46@googlegroups.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:40:15 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.157.37.125 with SMTP id j58mr7097475otd.18.1481762414882; Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:40:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: christian.kolen-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:16422 Archived-At: ------=_Part_189_998524930.1481762414258 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_190_946153221.1481762414258" ------=_Part_190_946153221.1481762414258 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:45:41 AM UTC-8, BP wrote: To a normal user (I.e. you aren=E2=80=99t a Pandoc contributor or filter au= thor)=20 the AST is an implementation detail which you don=E2=80=99t interact with. = The=20 normal user experience is pandoc -f markdown -t html`, i.e. you input a=20 document in one markup format and get (a file) in anotheir markup format=20 (possibly zipped together with sundry other files) as output, without any= =20 intermediate file or files. There is no point in creating a false=20 impression that there always must be an intermediate file. In fact that may= =20 scare off potential normal users. To them the thing which sets pandoc apart= =20 from other light markup processors is that it supports conversion back and= =20 forth between multiple markup formats, and the logo should emphasize that.= =20 The logo needs to be intelligible and meaningful to the less geeky users=20 which hopefully are in majority. /bpj It certainly is another possible perspective. So let me illustrate more on= =20 my perspective: 1.=20 =20 There are countless examples of expectation from end-users (including=20 me) that originated from the misunderstanding of what pandoc is and what= =20 pandoc does. Rather than trying not to =E2=80=9Cscare off potential norm= al users=E2=80=9D=20 (which is unlikely to happen from a logo alone, since they won=E2=80=99t= understand=20 the nuance in it at first sight), may be we should set the expectation= =20 right as early as possible, so that they won=E2=80=99t be disappointed l= ater on,=20 and will not waste time to use pandoc for the wrong task. 2.=20 =20 The logo having arrows pointing to a common element representing AST=20 will not make a real difference on first sight. But it would be a great= =20 =E2=80=9Centry point=E2=80=9D to talk about the philosophy behind pandoc= . Having a 2nd=20 layer of sophistication means intelligible and meaningful to me. (i.e. a= t=20 first sight you get something, but there=E2=80=99s a deeper story behind= it.) - To further illustrate on this point, at first glance, pandoc seems=20 very similar to some other tool, e.g. MultiMarkdown. But as one pushe= s the=20 tools further, they will realize pandoc is much deeper than what it s= eems=20 like at first glance. So, if the logo can have layers of meaning, it= =20 represents pandoc better.=20 =20 I don=E2=80=99t mean it has to be done this way. I mean if there=E2=80=99s = arrows, arrows=20 pointing to a common element is more correct and deeper, and doesn=E2=80=99= t really=20 scare off people (may actually attract the right people), and is a path=20 worth explore. But if no design makes this looks good and natural, we need= =20 not to force it. =E2=80=8B --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/30f01b4c-8b2c-481a-96f9-dfd0ba37e71a%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_190_946153221.1481762414258 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:45:41 AM UTC-8, BP wrote:

To a normal user (I.e. you a= ren=E2=80=99t a Pandoc contributor or filter author) the AST is an implemen= tation detail which you don=E2=80=99t interact with. The normal user experi= ence is pandoc -f markdown -t html`, i.e. you input a document in one marku= p format and get (a file) in anotheir markup format (possibly zipped togeth= er with sundry other files) as output, without any intermediate file or fil= es. There is no point in creating a false impression that there always must= be an intermediate file. In fact that may scare off potential normal users= . To them the thing which sets pandoc apart from other light markup process= ors is that it supports conversion back and forth between multiple markup f= ormats, and the logo should emphasize that. The logo needs to be intelligib= le and meaningful to the less geeky users which hopefully are in majority.<= /p>

/bpj

It certainly is another poss= ible perspective. So let me illustrate more on my perspective:

  1. There are countless examples of expectati= on from end-users (including me) that originated from the misunderstanding = of what pandoc is and what pandoc does. Rather than trying not to =E2=80=9C= scare off potential normal users=E2=80=9D (which is unlikely to happen from= a logo alone, since they won=E2=80=99t understand the nuance in it at firs= t sight), may be we should set the expectation right as early as possible, = so that they won=E2=80=99t be disappointed later on, and will not waste tim= e to use pandoc for the wrong task.

  2. The logo having arrows pointing to a comm= on element representing AST will not make a real difference on first sight.= But it would be a great =E2=80=9Centry point=E2=80=9D to talk about the ph= ilosophy behind pandoc. Having a 2nd layer of sophistication means intellig= ible and meaningful to me. (i.e. at first sight you get something, but ther= e=E2=80=99s a deeper story behind it.)

    • To further illustrate on this point, at fi= rst glance, pandoc seems very similar to some other tool, e.g. MultiMarkdow= n. But as one pushes the tools further, they will realize pandoc is much de= eper than what it seems like at first glance. So, if the logo can have laye= rs of meaning, it represents pandoc better.

I don=E2=80=99t mean it has = to be done this way. I mean if there=E2=80=99s arrows, arrows pointing to a= common element is more correct and deeper, and doesn=E2=80=99t really scar= e off people (may actually attract the right people), and is a path worth e= xplore. But if no design makes this looks good and natural, we need not to = force it.

=E2=80=8B

--
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