From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/28689 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: gnpan Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33940371-e6ec-4176-9483-8f06ec1b75ecn@googlegroups.com> References: Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1844_1707320637.1624688327353" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22419"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCMK7GUUXYBRBSEN3ODAMGQENREX46I-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Sat Jun 26 08:18:51 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-ot1-f56.google.com ([209.85.210.56]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lx1eV-0005dg-8q for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Jun 2021 08:18:51 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-f56.google.com with SMTP id y6-20020a9d51860000b029046100bd0f34sf4903077otg.22 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:18:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=xj+A9KPY3E8kFVmqoq+C7YYI2L0eC2WoXAVlKs9k/GY=; b=U9yH0eo0QV1TORp3nq+umel53rrfFhCBJ8SNs9BWUzUrHFOUqyuaB5a3bVty/Rh+0x N/mrJLPczC7CFhu81SgjsXmwUHh6RZKp0yBls2PCRIZl5qxE8GA7jk910YssidGvih7/ cUMficKKqNky6QdPj68jsTnJ8IqkYbZfNc2tzrcHDTlXOIECevhfqMSenfi24fIod6XO /maw3Xih7BOYP7HljvyiZalIH9ivbOuLSJWDR/pZR5XOx4pBiVVUXbXPYYhgu5+AqZfI FJ/s0PpngLSfXGE8Qs2VSgX4leGg5TbrgA7+YeS//UEVfo3iEZf8Ps+o90MuldAp2DhP J4kA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=xj+A9KPY3E8kFVmqoq+C7YYI2L0eC2WoXAVlKs9k/GY=; b=hDPIgn6e+VidPpoSu0dmjHQ2p0tt3v1wcBXNElzBRCbwLI3nEPLDs8GjeNNQ+Ri8/S 6Hyiq91jnpZh1XmBc9UorIKDVPm5LIKwMmpHIcUApDIaBJ1iMyXAvnTHefv0tZXwHzpv s1Yw8VhG4vh6MQPRXSrWhxbIXGaPUGmcpjkH5grDMMguqPbJSl/FVHnD7ROPWt1ANzTJ om74mMWgCwU1+9AyGLYtSpRFu8k7L8jgj8YRGj12cYSUL9DN2Qu4ZPP/Yl+grD8f6krW F/xKqQeK2shk/SxQ62wt03PwEEcbAJMcsjWZviuTyzWAi8gvXt2JeiYulyIBd39vRTQ+ 2PUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=xj+A9KPY3E8kFVmqoq+C7YYI2L0eC2WoXAVlKs9k/GY=; b=kipoFBdvsBHd1AZ5KjaM2RTs+ORp7uCg9i//SFof1VFEuWdkInnuXtBSEY4Id5oQAJ iGGc/3/MJTnO2vwHug6KbpBbAldzL1MNS8DB1jYAuioy6BDY5SaOFggfGTELkZn01Ddg 3hzvLowW4e/dOo66uEWQKcd/wWFq63EkcNza7TAQDThs+wWLa8d+Li1Yuw6xkAIbZ/CG eFFANeg54htjlJ7H9XEWEEeH4gorvGejmO6rD+rMIFRwkXkzVwTAXv0fNFBTNheQP4/t 9Hwlso/nV/gEaau/WQpUJbq+ek04Qg/B/hhxDtyempaoNZH6HcXg/1qCUA4fh+hCB6Td I9Fw== Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GzPWpOt18DN0CjdVeBaufdGtfVNBn3xx1aRjuWJk2mSAj3gg4 VC1wOcRI5Pn3sRya1hHw2Go= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwt8nwsCeMCSNaodgS4LqNMcEUGRXa5p7ZY86yPqzXgbgH/mn/GPtsESdD4s3ECX38b9ETpPQ== X-Received: by 2002:aca:3902:: with SMTP id g2mr10589476oia.162.1624688329684; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:18:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 2002:aca:b304:: with SMTP id c4ls4458068oif.8.gmail; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:18:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:90b:: with SMTP id 11mr24618oij.25.1624688328094; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:18:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: g.panayotou-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:28689 Archived-At: ------=_Part_1844_1707320637.1624688327353 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1845_288927665.1624688327353" ------=_Part_1845_288927665.1624688327353 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This problem was introduced with citeproc, which applies the style to the= =20 whole document, not just citations - it didn't occur with older versions of= =20 pandoc that used pandoc-citeproc. According to Jim=20 , it=20 would be tricky to fix this without causing problems with note citations.= =20 On Saturday, 26 June 2021 at 00:25:14 UTC+3 amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote: > On 6/25/2021 13:47, gnpan wrote: > > This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata=20 > > lang=3Den-GB as suggested here=20 > > or add a zero-width-space= =20 > as=20 > > mentioned here=20 > > >. > >=20 > >=20 > > On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote: > >=20 > > Hello, > >=20 > > It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought > > within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this > > didn't make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the > > behaviour... but I don't want a space! > >=20 > > Thanks, > > William > >=20 > > % pandoc -v > > pandoc 2.14.0.3 > >=20 > > % cat question.md > > '-'? > >=20 > > % pandoc question.md > >

=E2=80=98-=E2=80=99?

> >=20 > > % pandoc --citeproc question.md > >

=E2=80=98-?=E2=80=99

> >=20 > > > US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a=20 > quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that= =20 > the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?= =E2=80=9D). So,=20 > US practice supports both. > Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default=20 > position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content. > If CSL US locale processing is mangling this by moving both large and=20 > small marks in every case, then CSL processing is creating some new=20 > standard. I would suggest that if the proper position cannot be=20 > programmatically determined it should default to what the writer writes. > Quotation marks are used for other things than quotations. Indeed,=20 > the use in citation processing is such another use. Again the writer=20 > must be trusted to place punctuation properly in context. A.J. Liebling= =20 > wrote =E2=80=98Do You Belong in Journalism?=E2=80=99 in 1960; did he writ= e it in his=20 > regular column =E2=80=98The Wayward Press=E2=80=99? > The behavior identified here takes place outside of citation=20 > processing. The OP is rightly surprised that it results in changes=20 > beyond that scope. > > --=20 > Rik > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/33940371-e6ec-4176-9483-8f06ec1b75ecn%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_1845_288927665.1624688327353 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This problem was introduced with citeproc, which applies the style to the w= hole document, not just citations - it didn't occur with older versions of = pandoc that used pandoc-citeproc. According to Jim, it would be trick= y to fix this without causing problems with note citations. 

On Saturday= , 26 June 2021 at 00:25:14 UTC+3 amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
On 6/25/2021 13:47, gnpan wrot= e:
> This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try=C2=A0--meta= data=20
> lang=3Den-GB as suggested here=20
> <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005>=C2=A0or add a=C2= =A0zero-width-space as=20
> mentioned here=20
> <https://g= roups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>.
>=20
>=20
> On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be b= rought
> within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it = but this
> didn't make any difference. Putting a space before it avoi= ds the
> behaviour... but I don't want a space!
>=20
> Thanks,
> William
>=20
> % pandoc -v
> pandoc 2.14.0.3
>=20
> % cat question.md
> '-'?
>=20
> % pandoc question.md
> <p>=E2=80=98-=E2=80=99?</p>
>=20
> % pandoc --citeproc question.md
> <p>=E2=80=98-?=E2=80=99</p>
>=20


US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a= =20
quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case tha= t=20
the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?= =E2=80=9D). So,=20
US practice supports both.
Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default= =20
position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content= .
If CSL US locale processing is mangling this by moving both large an= d=20
small marks in every case, then CSL processing is creating some new=20
standard. I would suggest that if the proper position cannot be=20
programmatically determined it should default to what the writer writes= .
Quotation marks are used for other things than quotations. Indeed,= =20
the use in citation processing is such another use. Again the writer=20
must be trusted to place punctuation properly in context. A.J. Liebling= =20
wrote =E2=80=98Do You Belong in Journalism?=E2=80=99 in 1960; did he wr= ite it in his=20
regular column =E2=80=98The Wayward Press=E2=80=99?
The behavior identified here takes place outside of citation=20
processing. The OP is rightly surprised that it results in changes=20
beyond that scope.

--=20
Rik

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pand= oc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
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