Different container and item languages

Different container and item languages

[jmuc...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 973 bytes --]

(I would have thought this would have come up before, but I haven't been 
able to find a thread on it.)

I have a number of book sections that are in one language, when the book 
that contains them is titled in another. When the book's language is not 
English, but the section's is, this results in the book title getting 
capitalized according to English rules and not those of the language (say, 
German).

Is there any way around this? I don't see anything like 
"container-language" in csljson, which I'm exporting from Zotero to get my 
biblio file.

TIA.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e10-55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com.

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1323 bytes --]

Re: Different container and item languages

[Bastien DUMONT]

There is no way to set the language of individual items or fields in CSL. You will have to use a modified version of your style file (*.csl) where you remove all `text-case="title"` or `text-case="capitalize-all"` attributes. Then, you will have to capitalize your titles by hand in Zotero.

More informations here about how to write or modify a style: https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles

Le Wednesday 13 October 2021 à 07:36:28AM, jmuc...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org a écrit :
> (I would have thought this would have come up before, but I haven't been able
> to find a thread on it.)
> 
> I have a number of book sections that are in one language, when the book that
> contains them is titled in another. When the book's language is not English,
> but the section's is, this results in the book title getting capitalized
> according to English rules and not those of the language (say, German).
> 
> Is there any way around this? I don't see anything like "container-language" in
> csljson, which I'm exporting from Zotero to get my biblio file.
> 
> TIA.
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
> to [1]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit [2]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e10-55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com.
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> [2] https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e10-55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/YWb0A73xQIj542VM%40localhost.

AW: Different container and item languages

[denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0]

True, there's not way to set the language of individual fields.
But there's still an easier solution: set the language of the particular item to something other than english (e.g. German) and title case the chapter title manually.

Denis

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Im Auftrag von Bastien DUMONT
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Oktober 2021 16:58
> An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: Different container and item languages
> 
> There is no way to set the language of individual items or fields in CSL. You will
> have to use a modified version of your style file (*.csl) where you remove all
> `text-case="title"` or `text-case="capitalize-all"` attributes. Then, you will have
> to capitalize your titles by hand in Zotero.
> 
> More informations here about how to write or modify a style:
> https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles
> 
> Le Wednesday 13 October 2021 à 07:36:28AM, jmuc...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org a écrit :
> > (I would have thought this would have come up before, but I haven't
> > been able to find a thread on it.)
> >
> > I have a number of book sections that are in one language, when the
> > book that contains them is titled in another. When the book's language
> > is not English, but the section's is, this results in the book title
> > getting capitalized according to English rules and not those of the language
> (say, German).
> >
> > Is there any way around this? I don't see anything like
> > "container-language" in csljson, which I'm exporting from Zotero to get my
> biblio file.
> >
> > TIA.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> > an email to [1]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > [2]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> > pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e10-
> 55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com.
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> > [2]
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e
> > 10-
> 55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foote
> r
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-
> discuss/YWb0A73xQIj542VM%40localhost.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/e522bfcb41fc4e87ae4811f2311866e8%40unibe.ch.

Re: Different container and item languages

[amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4131 bytes --]

The shortcoming identified by the OP is a bit more complex. Consider the 
need to hyphenate an item title. Hyphenation should be done according to 
the rules of the language involved.

If the item title has internal quotation marks, it may be important to 
ensure that those also agree with the language of the item title.

This is not an unusual when dealing with such things as the proceedings of 
international conferences. Iterated manual tuning may be the only option if 
a good result is required and there is no mechanism to specify a language 
for each item. 

-- 
Rik

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:05:36 AM UTC-4 denis...-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org wrote:

> True, there's not way to set the language of individual fields.
> But there's still an easier solution: set the language of the particular 
> item to something other than english (e.g. German) and title case the 
> chapter title manually.
>
> Denis
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> > Im Auftrag von Bastien DUMONT
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Oktober 2021 16:58
> > An: pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> > Betreff: Re: Different container and item languages
> > 
> > There is no way to set the language of individual items or fields in 
> CSL. You will
> > have to use a modified version of your style file (*.csl) where you 
> remove all
> > `text-case="title"` or `text-case="capitalize-all"` attributes. Then, 
> you will have
> > to capitalize your titles by hand in Zotero.
> > 
> > More informations here about how to write or modify a style:
> > https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles
> > 
> > Le Wednesday 13 October 2021 à 07:36:28AM, jmuc...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org a écrit :
> > > (I would have thought this would have come up before, but I haven't
> > > been able to find a thread on it.)
> > >
> > > I have a number of book sections that are in one language, when the
> > > book that contains them is titled in another. When the book's language
> > > is not English, but the section's is, this results in the book title
> > > getting capitalized according to English rules and not those of the 
> language
> > (say, German).
> > >
> > > Is there any way around this? I don't see anything like
> > > "container-language" in csljson, which I'm exporting from Zotero to 
> get my
> > biblio file.
> > >
> > > TIA.
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> > > an email to [1]pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > [2]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> > > pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e10-
> > 55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com.
> > >
> > > References:
> > >
> > > [1] mailto:pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> > > [2]
> > > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e
> > > 10-
> > 55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foote
> > r
> > 
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-
> > discuss/YWb0A73xQIj542VM%40localhost.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/f801c9d3-2e9b-4538-98c6-c402013874aen%40googlegroups.com.

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 7100 bytes --]

AW: Different container and item languages

[denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5535 bytes --]

Rik,

these are indeed serious issues. Unfortunately, there’s no official solution to deal with this in CSL yet. There’s an extended version called CSL-M (https://citeproc-js.readthedocs.io/en/latest/csl-m/) that contains a lot of useful extendsions, and that supports these kind of issues.

But, really, multilingual bibliographies are tricky beasts. BibLaTeX will add multilingual features in a future version, but I don’t know when that will be released.

Denis

Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Im Auftrag von amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Oktober 2021 20:16
An: pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
Betreff: Re: Different container and item languages

The shortcoming identified by the OP is a bit more complex. Consider the need to hyphenate an item title. Hyphenation should be done according to the rules of the language involved.

If the item title has internal quotation marks, it may be important to ensure that those also agree with the language of the item title.

This is not an unusual when dealing with such things as the proceedings of international conferences. Iterated manual tuning may be the only option if a good result is required and there is no mechanism to specify a language for each item.

--
Rik

On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 11:05:36 AM UTC-4 denis...-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org<mailto:denis...-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> wrote:
True, there's not way to set the language of individual fields.
But there's still an easier solution: set the language of the particular item to something other than english (e.g. German) and title case the chapter title manually.

Denis

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Im Auftrag von Bastien DUMONT
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Oktober 2021 16:58
> An: pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: Different container and item languages
>
> There is no way to set the language of individual items or fields in CSL. You will
> have to use a modified version of your style file (*.csl) where you remove all
> `text-case="title"` or `text-case="capitalize-all"` attributes. Then, you will have
> to capitalize your titles by hand in Zotero.
>
> More informations here about how to write or modify a style:
> https://www.zotero.org/support/dev/citation_styles
>
> Le Wednesday 13 October 2021 à 07:36:28AM, jmuc...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org a écrit :
> > (I would have thought this would have come up before, but I haven't
> > been able to find a thread on it.)
> >
> > I have a number of book sections that are in one language, when the
> > book that contains them is titled in another. When the book's language
> > is not English, but the section's is, this results in the book title
> > getting capitalized according to English rules and not those of the language
> (say, German).
> >
> > Is there any way around this? I don't see anything like
> > "container-language" in csljson, which I'm exporting from Zotero to get my
> biblio file.
> >
> > TIA.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> > an email to [1]pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > [2]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> > pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e10-
> 55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com<http://40googlegroups.com>.
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] mailto:pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> > [2]
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/38c03aca-c194-4a4d-8e
> > 10-
> 55e394056b3fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foote<http://40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=foote>
> r
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-
> discuss/YWb0A73xQIj542VM%40localhost.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org<mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/f801c9d3-2e9b-4538-98c6-c402013874aen%40googlegroups.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/f801c9d3-2e9b-4538-98c6-c402013874aen%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/22e8e700ebcb4f4aa319f8a917b9e279%40unibe.ch.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 10527 bytes --]

Re: Different container and item languages

[jmuc...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1187 bytes --]

Thanks, everyone. It's too bad such a common situation isn't covered by 
default.

On Wednesday, 13 October 2021 at 10:36:28 UTC-4 jmuc...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:

> (I would have thought this would have come up before, but I haven't been 
> able to find a thread on it.)
>
> I have a number of book sections that are in one language, when the book 
> that contains them is titled in another. When the book's language is not 
> English, but the section's is, this results in the book title getting 
> capitalized according to English rules and not those of the language (say, 
> German).
>
> Is there any way around this? I don't see anything like 
> "container-language" in csljson, which I'm exporting from Zotero to get my 
> biblio file.
>
> TIA.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/55bc51a4-65cc-4dff-b92d-771fbc0302d1n%40googlegroups.com.

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1756 bytes --]

Re: Different container and item languages

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 869 bytes --]

One approach that hasn’t been mentioned so far is to set a multilingual item’s language to "en", and to enclose all non-English components in `<span class="nocase"> ... </span>` tags. This will work with standard CSL style files (no need for modifications). However, since it merely prevents case conversion without setting a language, it does not solve the hyphenation issue.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/3AandQ3b1innUzrzLNIBsS0gBOs8fUAfkChiCbzD3cWUt6LXMeV3CBi9y33SYdHsZ4uza5Az_FhN3c3QsNs36Ol8a7SsnZPcJ9j8poC9Y14%3D%40protonmail.com.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1247 bytes --]