From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/28690 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: gnpan Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? 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According to Jim=20 > , it=20 > would be tricky to fix this without causing problems with note citations.= =20 > > On Saturday, 26 June 2021 at 00:25:14 UTC+3 amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote: > >> On 6/25/2021 13:47, gnpan wrote:=20 >> > This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata=20 >> > lang=3Den-GB as suggested here=20 >> > or add a zero-width-space= =20 >> as=20 >> > mentioned here=20 >> > < >> https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>= .=20 >> >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:=20 >> >=20 >> > Hello,=20 >> >=20 >> > It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought= =20 >> > within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this=20 >> > didn't make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the=20 >> > behaviour... but I don't want a space!=20 >> >=20 >> > Thanks,=20 >> > William=20 >> >=20 >> > % pandoc -v=20 >> > pandoc 2.14.0.3=20 >> >=20 >> > % cat question.md=20 >> > '-'?=20 >> >=20 >> > % pandoc question.md=20 >> >

=E2=80=98-=E2=80=99?

=20 >> >=20 >> > % pandoc --citeproc question.md=20 >> >

=E2=80=98-?=E2=80=99

=20 >> >=20 >> >> >> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a= =20 >> quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that= =20 >> the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?= =E2=80=9D). So,=20 >> US practice supports both.=20 >> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default=20 >> position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.= =20 >> If CSL US locale processing is mangling this by moving both large and=20 >> small marks in every case, then CSL processing is creating some new=20 >> standard. I would suggest that if the proper position cannot be=20 >> programmatically determined it should default to what the writer writes.= =20 >> Quotation marks are used for other things than quotations. Indeed,=20 >> the use in citation processing is such another use. Again the writer=20 >> must be trusted to place punctuation properly in context. A.J. Liebling= =20 >> wrote =E2=80=98Do You Belong in Journalism?=E2=80=99 in 1960; did he wri= te it in his=20 >> regular column =E2=80=98The Wayward Press=E2=80=99?=20 >> The behavior identified here takes place outside of citation=20 >> processing. The OP is rightly surprised that it results in changes=20 >> beyond that scope.=20 >> >> --=20 >> Rik=20 >> >> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/40e3a7b3-c3d4-4a8e-bba0-b3a5bd4b7cfen%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_2941_1951607099.1624688472203 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable sorry, meant jgm (or John)

On Saturday, 26 June 2021 at 09:18:47 UTC+3 gnpan = wrote:
This p= roblem was introduced with citeproc, which applies the style to the whole d= ocument, not just citations - it didn't occur with older versions of pa= ndoc that used pandoc-citeproc. According to Jim, it would be tricky to fix this without causing problem= s with note citations.=C2=A0

On Saturday, 26 June 2021 at 00:25:14 UTC+3 amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
On 6/25/2021 13:47, gnpan wro= te:
> This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try=C2=A0--meta= data=20
> lang=3Den-GB as suggested here=20
> <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005>=C2=A0or add a=C2= =A0zero-width-space as=20
> mentioned here=20
> <https://g= roups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>.
>=20
>=20
> On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be b= rought
> within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it = but this
> didn't make any difference. Putting a space before it avoi= ds the
> behaviour... but I don't want a space!
>=20
> Thanks,
> William
>=20
> % pandoc -v
> pandoc 2.14.0.3
>=20
> % cat question.md
> '-'?
>=20
> % pandoc question.md
> <p>=E2=80=98-=E2=80=99?</p>
>=20
> % pandoc --citeproc question.md
> <p>=E2=80=98-?=E2=80=99</p>
>=20


US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a= =20
quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case tha= t=20
the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?= =E2=80=9D). So,=20
US practice supports both.
Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default= =20
position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content= .
If CSL US locale processing is mangling this by moving both large an= d=20
small marks in every case, then CSL processing is creating some new=20
standard. I would suggest that if the proper position cannot be=20
programmatically determined it should default to what the writer writes= .
Quotation marks are used for other things than quotations. Indeed,= =20
the use in citation processing is such another use. Again the writer=20
must be trusted to place punctuation properly in context. A.J. Liebling= =20
wrote =E2=80=98Do You Belong in Journalism?=E2=80=99 in 1960; did he wr= ite it in his=20
regular column =E2=80=98The Wayward Press=E2=80=99?
The behavior identified here takes place outside of citation=20
processing. The OP is rightly surprised that it results in changes=20
beyond that scope.

--=20
Rik

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