From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/11012 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: hgv Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Footnote with citations and multiple paragraphs using pandoc-citeproc Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 05:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <434f4241-543a-423e-a8e6-0c8456f0c8fc@googlegroups.com> References: <3FDE0D22-3F5C-4471-9451-CD0FA4E96531@gmail.com> <20140926210311.GB20437@berkeley.edu> <246e0391-eb53-40d3-bb59-dc1c97d94ebb@googlegroups.com> <20140927041953.GA38502@localhost.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_242_139853885.1412079765291" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1412079779 14935 80.91.229.3 (30 Sep 2014 12:22:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 12:22:59 +0000 (UTC) To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDR5DU57YMGRBFWBVKQQKGQEB3YHKJA-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Tue Sep 30 14:22:55 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-ie0-f187.google.com ([209.85.223.187]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XYwS8-0003cq-8M for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 14:22:48 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-ie0-f187.google.com with SMTP id rd18sf236201iec.24 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WCntyBaIH9hFsekKYVX/L9ad373nEbvYM4aM6xP+dyQ=; b=uJwIRTsSIZaCA03ECzBqqaWjr4ll2c4/Yh6iCDRmAxnh8O12+XiVeV35GFpXR12YEt gGVE0PXDK/zjnmgGW70/dbY68dEI90iVt9ZXlX26kWeY6fCeVBHGT1fW7IprN1d+6bIe s4qopkoYJWZ/5yGJ8hIR/CUdJ3OGzNzdCIY3PDsTVACUrpXrEVVr5mgrVtP6xy7moDNY 1FtLGcAZe0be7Qmn/EYxyemLUczFxIXkCC9hu0qoWUwl3cXIwKndO4UxLR9gzQ2QJjui XUtS9dhHzutfiPiOCeqWdytW/Ru37swyqjUivzNjwLs3g7DBWzakdtoGx1/RtK+M96iE Ao/Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WCntyBaIH9hFsekKYVX/L9ad373nEbvYM4aM6xP+dyQ=; b=ctJGcE6SX+WD/dMEfIowZmTzr0CuHXgocuvtBEL+dOPoB/HeDIYKDNezBMknRF7D0A qb+J6KX8HB3q91RDTdPKUKor3nb2Dqf5eDmp8ssH9uYSBzJueX30VrTeeHRvPrqxgmDe D1SpW6n6Fx75g9ALsS0TGOE0bOMD9U57W+jZnzuqIncf1TkEb0T2cuPLUhxJrBFQ678y jsIYdmF4O1RuFW8xmiFRCL4w+K/YO338kvt5db/5OnwPDVd+coP8glqfNei4mj6P3IeQ LC3pBIlAt4HpWyMyjqlTiCpYlmdB4wbNcCBhTU0lfY415W037MieGc9FaYtMvCBW9pNG g+dw== X-Received: by 10.140.108.203 with SMTP id j69mr1781qgf.30.1412079766492; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.140.88.199 with SMTP id t65ls37824qgd.83.gmail; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.102.177 with SMTP id w46mr14675qge.15.1412079766021; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140927041953.GA38502-bi+AKbBUZKbivNSvqvJHCtPlBySK3R6THiGdP5j34PU@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: jbauchner-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:11012 Archived-At: ------=_Part_242_139853885.1412079765291 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am very familiar with CMOS but not with how it is implemented via CSLs,= =20 so forgive the technical ignorance of my answer. All of this applies to=20 Chicago full note only. I think CMOS is pretty clear about your question: they recommend no=20 formatting outside of the citation text that comes from the bibliography=20 file in pandoc-citeproc, but it's flexible and up to the=20 author/publication: "A footnote or an endnote generally lists the author,= =20 title, and facts of publication, in that order. . . . The notes allow space= =20 for unusual types of sources as well as for commentary on the sources=20 cited, making this system extremely flexible."=20 See http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec002.html, http://ww= w.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec014.html,=20 http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec015.html, and=20 http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec018.html. Citation texts can come in three forms: full form (first citation), short= =20 form (last name, short title only), and "ibid." What follows the citation= =20 text can be punctuation (most often . , ; : but possibly also ? ! ] or=20 otherwise=E2=80=94but this is left up to the author) or a space. As you kno= w, in=20 the short form of citation text, when the title is styled in quotation=20 marks (e.g., journal article), a following comma needs to change places=20 with the end quotation mark. All other following punctuation and spaces=20 just remain as is (except with ibid. and a period; see next sentence). As= =20 ibid. comes with its own period, an following period needs to be suppressed= =20 (all other following punctuation remains;=20 see http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch06/ch06_sec117.html). The only= =20 variable on the front end is with "ibid." and whether to cap or not cap the= =20 letter *i*=E2=80=94this is determined by whether the citation is starting a= new=20 sentence. I believe I saw elsewhere John writing that determining a=20 sentence ending period and therefore a sentence beginning citation is=20 difficult, so this would be a sticking point.=20 So, as far as I can tell, if pandoc-citeproc expands a pandoc citation in a= =20 md note to the appropriate citation text (full, short, or ibid), with the= =20 above few conditions (and of course I may have missed some=E2=80=94but agai= n, it's=20 supposed to be flexible for the author/publication, if they want pp. or=20 not, for instance), that would work. Maybe this is so ignorant of the=20 challenges as to be offensive=E2=80=94but it seems like pandoc-citeproc is = most of=20 the way there. From my end, it seems like perhaps there would still be a=20 use for the bracket elements of pandoc citations in order to indicate, for= =20 instance, where citations are within notes or to help facilitate making the= =20 above conditional changes based on non-citation sentence elements. Another reason I would advocate for splitting the functions of=20 pandoc-citeproc is the nice ability of md to stand alone as easily readable= =20 plain text. It would be great for footnotes to actually be md notes (even= =20 with pandoc-style citations). Perhaps this isn't so important for others. And thanks, nickb, the line break works in my limited testing! On Saturday, September 27, 2014 12:20:07 AM UTC-4, John MacFarlane wrote: > > +++ hgv [Sep 26 14 14:43 ]:=20 > >A larger solution might be in giving up the ability of pandoc-citeproc t= o=20 > >produce either inline citations or note citations. I understand how=20 > useful=20 > >this is, but if it doesn't actually work for one side of it (notes), I= =20 > >don't see the value. Of course, I only work with Chicago=20 > note-bibliography,=20 > >which is where my bias comes from. But it seems to be designed primarily= =20 > >for those who work with Chicago author-date (and other inline styles),= =20 > not=20 > >really those who use both extensively. But as I'm sure this would entail= =20 > a=20 > >fair amount of work to just get back to where it is now, I understand th= e=20 > >downsides.=20 > > The question is this: in footnote styles, how SHOULD a citation that=20 > appears inside a note be formatted? Clearly not as a footnote, but=20 > unfortunately beyond that the style won't give us guidance. Should=20 > it be a separate sentence? In parentheses? In brackets? These are=20 > all stylistic variations, but the style can't help us here because=20 > it's a note style.=20 > > If this question could be answered, perhaps progress could be made.=20 > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/434f4241-543a-423e-a8e6-0c8456f0c8fc%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_242_139853885.1412079765291 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am very familiar with CMOS but not with how it is implem= ented via CSLs, so forgive the technical ignorance of my answer. All of thi= s applies to Chicago full note only.

I think CMOS is pre= tty clear about your question: they recommend no formatting outside of the = citation text that comes from the bibliography file in pandoc-citeproc, but= it's flexible and up to the author/publication: "A footnote or an endnote = generally lists the author, title, and facts of publication, in that order.= . . . The notes allow space for unusual types of sources as well as for co= mmentary on the sources cited, making this system extremely flexible." See&= nbsp;http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec002.html, htt= p://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec014.html, http://www.chica= gomanualofstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec015.html, and http://www.chicagomanualo= fstyle.org/16/ch14/ch14_sec018.html.

Citation text= s can come in three forms: full form (first citation), short form (last nam= e, short title only), and "ibid." What follows the citation text can be pun= ctuation (most often . , ; : but possibly also ? ! ] or otherwise=E2=80=94b= ut this is left up to the author) or a space. As you know, in the short for= m of citation text, when the title is styled in quotation marks (e.g., jour= nal article), a following comma needs to change places with the end quotati= on mark. All other following punctuation and spaces just remain as is (exce= pt with ibid. and a period; see next sentence). As ibid. comes with its own= period, an following period needs to be suppressed (all other following pu= nctuation remains; see http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch06/ch0= 6_sec117.html). The only variable on the front end is with "ibid." and whet= her to cap or not cap the letter i=E2=80=94this is determined by whe= ther the citation is starting a new sentence. I believe I saw elsewhere Joh= n writing that determining a sentence ending period and therefore a sentenc= e beginning citation is difficult, so this would be a sticking point. =

So, as far as I can tell, if pandoc-citeproc expa= nds a pandoc citation in a md note to the appropriate citation text (full, = short, or ibid), with the above few conditions (and of course I may have mi= ssed some=E2=80=94but again, it's supposed to be flexible for the author/pu= blication, if they want pp. or not, for instance), that would work. Maybe t= his is so ignorant of the challenges as to be offensive=E2=80=94but it seem= s like pandoc-citeproc is most of the way there. From my end, it seems like= perhaps there would still be a use for the bracket elements of pandoc cita= tions in order to indicate, for instance, where citations are within notes = or to help facilitate making the above conditional changes based on non-cit= ation sentence elements.

Another reason I would ad= vocate for splitting the functions of pandoc-citeproc is the nice ability o= f md to stand alone as easily readable plain text. It would be great for fo= otnotes to actually be md notes (even with pandoc-style citations). Perhaps= this isn't so important for others.

And thank= s, nickb, the line break works in my limited testing!

<= div>
On Saturday, September 27, 2014 12:20:07 AM UTC-4, John MacFarlane = wrote:
+++ hgv [Sep 26 14 14:43= ]:
>A larger solution might be in giving up the ability of pandoc-citep= roc to
>produce either inline citations or note citations. I understand how= useful
>this is, but if it doesn't actually work for one side of it (notes)= , I
>don't see the value. Of course, I only work with Chicago note-bibli= ography,
>which is where my bias comes from. But it seems to be designed prim= arily
>for those who work with Chicago author-date (and other inline style= s), not
>really those who use both extensively. But as I'm sure this would e= ntail a
>fair amount of work to just get back to where it is now, I understa= nd the
>downsides.

The question is this:  in footnote styles, how SHOULD a citation t= hat
appears inside a note be formatted?  Clearly not as a footnote, bu= t
unfortunately beyond that the style won't give us guidance.  Shoul= d
it be a separate sentence?  In parentheses?  In brackets? &nb= sp;These are
all stylistic variations, but the style can't help us here because
it's a note style.

If this question could be answered, perhaps progress could be made.

--
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