Specifying location of bibliography in document

Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Jason White]

Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of the document for insertion of the bibliography? There might, for example, need to be appendices or other material following the list of references.

LaTeX can do this easily, of course, but I haven’t found anything in the documentation to suggest how to achieve it with Pandoc.

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

>Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of
>the document for insertion of the bibliography? There
>might, for example, need to be appendices or other material
>following the list of references.

Currently you can only do this by generating the
bibliography as a separate document, and inserting it
manually (e.g. using a template).

There's a proposal in
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/771 that I think should
probably be implemented.  The idea is that pandoc-citeproc
would look for a header with id "references".  If it finds
one, it inserts the bibliography there.  If it doesn't,
it behaves like it currently does and appends the
bibliography to the end of the document.  As far as I can
see, this would be pretty easy to implement.

https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1612 makes a similar
proposal for table of contents, and
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1720 for footnotes,
but those are independent and could be done separately
or not at all.

Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

Followup:  I think it makes more sense to use a div
with id="references" rather than a section.  That gives
maximum flexibility; e.g. you can insert the bibliography
without a section header, or under a header and some
preliminary text.  So the proposal is that if the document
contains a Div with id "references", the bibliography
is inserted there; otherwise at the end of the document
(in which case it is also put in a special Div, as it
is now).



+++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:04 ]:
>>Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of
>>the document for insertion of the bibliography? There
>>might, for example, need to be appendices or other material
>>following the list of references.
>
>Currently you can only do this by generating the
>bibliography as a separate document, and inserting it
>manually (e.g. using a template).
>
>There's a proposal in
>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/771 that I think should
>probably be implemented.  The idea is that pandoc-citeproc
>would look for a header with id "references".  If it finds
>one, it inserts the bibliography there.  If it doesn't,
>it behaves like it currently does and appends the
>bibliography to the end of the document.  As far as I can
>see, this would be pretty easy to implement.
>
>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1612 makes a similar
>proposal for table of contents, and
>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1720 for footnotes,
>but those are independent and could be done separately
>or not at all.
>
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 08/29/2015 04:21 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:
> Followup:  I think it makes more sense to use a div
> with id="references" rather than a section.  That gives
> maximum flexibility; e.g. you can insert the bibliography
> without a section header, or under a header and some
> preliminary text.  So the proposal is that if the document
> contains a Div with id "references", the bibliography
> is inserted there; otherwise at the end of the document
> (in which case it is also put in a special Div, as it
> is now).

John,

it would be great to have the same features for footnotes and table of
contents.

Many thanks for your help,


Pablo



> +++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:04 ]:
>>> Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of
>>> the document for insertion of the bibliography? There
>>> might, for example, need to be appendices or other material
>>> following the list of references.
>>
>> Currently you can only do this by generating the
>> bibliography as a separate document, and inserting it
>> manually (e.g. using a template).
>>
>> There's a proposal in
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/771 that I think should
>> probably be implemented.  The idea is that pandoc-citeproc
>> would look for a header with id "references".  If it finds
>> one, it inserts the bibliography there.  If it doesn't,
>> it behaves like it currently does and appends the
>> bibliography to the end of the document.  As far as I can
>> see, this would be pretty easy to implement.
>>
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1612 makes a similar
>> proposal for table of contents, and
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1720 for footnotes,
>> but those are independent and could be done separately
>> or not at all.
>>
>> -- 
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>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

I've implemented this in the dev version.  You can
pull from github and install using `stack install`
or `cabal install` if you want to try it.


+++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:21 ]:
>Followup:  I think it makes more sense to use a div
>with id="references" rather than a section.  That gives
>maximum flexibility; e.g. you can insert the bibliography
>without a section header, or under a header and some
>preliminary text.  So the proposal is that if the document
>contains a Div with id "references", the bibliography
>is inserted there; otherwise at the end of the document
>(in which case it is also put in a special Div, as it
>is now).
>
>
>
>+++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:04 ]:
>>>Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of
>>>the document for insertion of the bibliography? There
>>>might, for example, need to be appendices or other material
>>>following the list of references.
>>
>>Currently you can only do this by generating the
>>bibliography as a separate document, and inserting it
>>manually (e.g. using a template).
>>
>>There's a proposal in
>>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/771 that I think should
>>probably be implemented.  The idea is that pandoc-citeproc
>>would look for a header with id "references".  If it finds
>>one, it inserts the bibliography there.  If it doesn't,
>>it behaves like it currently does and appends the
>>bibliography to the end of the document.  As far as I can
>>see, this would be pretty easy to implement.
>>
>>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1612 makes a similar
>>proposal for table of contents, and
>>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1720 for footnotes,
>>but those are independent and could be done separately
>>or not at all.
>>
>>-- 
>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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>>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Andrew Dunning]

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Will this also allow for the insertion of extra markup through a template? 
(For instance, a LaTeX class I am using wants the bibliography to be 
surrounded by \begin{thebibliography}...\end{thebibliography}, and it would 
be fantastic to be able to achieve that.)

On Saturday, August 29, 2015 at 11:45:42 AM UTC-4, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> I've implemented this in the dev version.  You can 
> pull from github and install using `stack install` 
> or `cabal install` if you want to try it. 
>
>
> +++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:21 ]: 
> >Followup:  I think it makes more sense to use a div 
> >with id="references" rather than a section.  That gives 
> >maximum flexibility; e.g. you can insert the bibliography 
> >without a section header, or under a header and some 
> >preliminary text.  So the proposal is that if the document 
> >contains a Div with id "references", the bibliography 
> >is inserted there; otherwise at the end of the document 
> >(in which case it is also put in a special Div, as it 
> >is now). 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >+++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:04 ]: 
> >>>Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of 
> >>>the document for insertion of the bibliography? There 
> >>>might, for example, need to be appendices or other material 
> >>>following the list of references. 
> >> 
> >>Currently you can only do this by generating the 
> >>bibliography as a separate document, and inserting it 
> >>manually (e.g. using a template). 
> >> 
> >>There's a proposal in 
> >>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/771 that I think should 
> >>probably be implemented.  The idea is that pandoc-citeproc 
> >>would look for a header with id "references".  If it finds 
> >>one, it inserts the bibliography there.  If it doesn't, 
> >>it behaves like it currently does and appends the 
> >>bibliography to the end of the document.  As far as I can 
> >>see, this would be pretty easy to implement. 
> >> 
> >>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1612 makes a similar 
> >>proposal for table of contents, and 
> >>https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1720 for footnotes, 
> >>but those are independent and could be done separately 
> >>or not at all. 
> >> 
> >>-- 
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> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. 
> >>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <javascript:>. 
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> <javascript:>. 
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>
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> > 
> >-- 
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

+++ Andrew Dunning [Aug 30 15 13:06 ]:
>   Will this also allow for the insertion of extra markup through a
>   template? (For instance, a LaTeX class I am using wants the
>   bibliography to be surrounded
>   by \begin{thebibliography}...\end{thebibliography}, and it would be
>   fantastic to be able to achieve that.)

The bibliography was never part of a template and still
isn't.  It is inserted directly into the document body.

There are various ways to achieve what you want.  One is
write a simple filter that can run after pandoc-citeproc.
It would intercept a Div with id = references, and
add the needed raw latex commands to the beginning and end
of its contents.

Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w]

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I have a filter that adds the needed raw latex commands:

~~~
#!/usr/bin/env runhaskell

-- addRefEnvItem.hs

import Text.Pandoc.JSON

main :: IO ()
main = toJSONFilter addRefEnvItem

addRefEnvItem :: Maybe Format -> Block -> Block
addRefEnvItem (Just (Format "latex"))
  (Div ("",["references"],[]) (h@(Header _ _ _) : blocks)) =
  Div ("",["references"],[]) 
    ( [h, latex "\\begin{references}\\sloppy"] ++ 
    concatMap addItem blocks ++ [latex "\\end{references}"] )
  where latex = RawBlock (Format "latex")
addRefEnvItem _ x = x

addItem :: Block -> [Block]
addItem x = [RawBlock (Format "latex") "\\item", x] 
~~~

… but it has stopped working after the latest updates. What are the 
adjustments needed?

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 5:54:33 AM UTC, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> +++ Andrew Dunning [Aug 30 15 13:06 ]: 
> >   Will this also allow for the insertion of extra markup through a 
> >   template? (For instance, a LaTeX class I am using wants the 
> >   bibliography to be surrounded 
> >   by \begin{thebibliography}...\end{thebibliography}, and it would be 
> >   fantastic to be able to achieve that.) 
>
> The bibliography was never part of a template and still 
> isn't.  It is inserted directly into the document body. 
>
> There are various ways to achieve what you want.  One is 
> write a simple filter that can run after pandoc-citeproc. 
> It would intercept a Div with id = references, and 
> add the needed raw latex commands to the beginning and end 
> of its contents. 
>
>

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w]

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For clarity: the hanging indent filter above inserts `\item` in front of 
every entry, and requires the definition of a  `references` environment in 
a template:

~~~
\newenvironment{references} {\list{}{% hanging indent, 
src/myfilters/addRefEnvItem.hs
    \leftmargin1.5em%
    \itemindent-\leftmargin%
    \itemsep0.5ex%
    \parsep0pt%
    }}
    {\endlist}
~~~

I wonder whether the latex writer itself shouldn’t insert such a 
`references` environment by default. Hanging indent is required by many 
styles anyway but could be redefined as necessary.

Even better, pandoc(-citeproc) could parse the CSL `hanging` and 
`second-field-align` flags, and inject appropriate formatting instructions 
into the `references` environment.


On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 7:09:15 AM UTC, nickba...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
>
> I have a filter that adds the needed raw latex commands:
>
> ~~~
> #!/usr/bin/env runhaskell
>
> -- addRefEnvItem.hs
>
> import Text.Pandoc.JSON
>
> main :: IO ()
> main = toJSONFilter addRefEnvItem
>
> addRefEnvItem :: Maybe Format -> Block -> Block
> addRefEnvItem (Just (Format "latex"))
>   (Div ("",["references"],[]) (h@(Header _ _ _) : blocks)) =
>   Div ("",["references"],[]) 
>     ( [h, latex "\\begin{references}\\sloppy"] ++ 
>     concatMap addItem blocks ++ [latex "\\end{references}"] )
>   where latex = RawBlock (Format "latex")
> addRefEnvItem _ x = x
>
> addItem :: Block -> [Block]
> addItem x = [RawBlock (Format "latex") "\\item", x] 
> ~~~
>
> … but it has stopped working after the latest updates. What are the 
> adjustments needed?
>
> On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 5:54:33 AM UTC, John MacFarlane wrote:
>>
>> +++ Andrew Dunning [Aug 30 15 13:06 ]: 
>> >   Will this also allow for the insertion of extra markup through a 
>> >   template? (For instance, a LaTeX class I am using wants the 
>> >   bibliography to be surrounded 
>> >   by \begin{thebibliography}...\end{thebibliography}, and it would be 
>> >   fantastic to be able to achieve that.) 
>>
>> The bibliography was never part of a template and still 
>> isn't.  It is inserted directly into the document body. 
>>
>> There are various ways to achieve what you want.  One is 
>> write a simple filter that can run after pandoc-citeproc. 
>> It would intercept a Div with id = references, and 
>> add the needed raw latex commands to the beginning and end 
>> of its contents. 
>>
>>

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Andrew Dunning]

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Thanks for this!

Yes, it would be ideal if the LaTeX writer could add this information by 
default. Using an environment called `thebibliography` is most common; see 
<https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Bibliography_Management#Embedded_system> 
for the syntax.

On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 5:28:43 AM UTC-4, nickba...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
>
> For clarity: the hanging indent filter above inserts `\item` in front of 
> every entry, and requires the definition of a  `references` environment in 
> a template:
>
> ~~~
> \newenvironment{references} {\list{}{% hanging indent, 
> src/myfilters/addRefEnvItem.hs
>     \leftmargin1.5em%
>     \itemindent-\leftmargin%
>     \itemsep0.5ex%
>     \parsep0pt%
>     }}
>     {\endlist}
> ~~~
>
> I wonder whether the latex writer itself shouldn’t insert such a 
> `references` environment by default. Hanging indent is required by many 
> styles anyway but could be redefined as necessary.
>
> Even better, pandoc(-citeproc) could parse the CSL `hanging` and 
> `second-field-align` flags, and inject appropriate formatting instructions 
> into the `references` environment.
>

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w]

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Using an environment named `thebibliography` is too confusing: this should 
be reserved for documents written to make use of latex’s bib processing 
mechanism (which we don’t when using pandoc-citeproc). On the contrary, a 
more uncommon name such as `pandoc-references` or `csl-references` might be 
preferable, and we’d need to come up with our own syntax anyway.

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

I changed from adding a Div with class 'references' to
adding a Div with id 'references'.  It would be easy
to change the script:  match on

    Div ("references",[],[])

instead of

    Div ("",["references"],[])

Or I could change the writer so that it adds both a class
'references' and an id.  Perhaps the latter is the most
robust fix.

John

+++ nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Aug 31 15 00:09 ]:
>   I have a filter that adds the needed raw latex commands:
>   ~~~
>   #!/usr/bin/env runhaskell
>   -- addRefEnvItem.hs
>   import Text.Pandoc.JSON
>   main :: IO ()
>   main = toJSONFilter addRefEnvItem
>   addRefEnvItem :: Maybe Format -> Block -> Block
>   addRefEnvItem (Just (Format "latex"))
>     (Div ("",["references"],[]) (h@(Header _ _ _) : blocks)) =
>     Div ("",["references"],[])
>       ( [h, latex "\\begin{references}\\sloppy"] ++
>       concatMap addItem blocks ++ [latex "\\end{references}"] )
>     where latex = RawBlock (Format "latex")
>   addRefEnvItem _ x = x
>   addItem :: Block -> [Block]
>   addItem x = [RawBlock (Format "latex") "\\item", x]
>   ~~~
>   … but it has stopped working after the latest updates. What are the
>   adjustments needed?
>   On Monday, August 31, 2015 at 5:54:33 AM UTC, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>     +++ Andrew Dunning [Aug 30 15 13:06 ]:
>     >   Will this also allow for the insertion of extra markup through a
>     >   template? (For instance, a LaTeX class I am using wants the
>     >   bibliography to be surrounded
>     >   by \begin{thebibliography}...\end{thebibliography}, and it would
>     be
>     >   fantastic to be able to achieve that.)
>     The bibliography was never part of a template and still
>     isn't.  It is inserted directly into the document body.
>     There are various ways to achieve what you want.  One is
>     write a simple filter that can run after pandoc-citeproc.
>     It would intercept a Div with id = references, and
>     add the needed raw latex commands to the beginning and end
>     of its contents.
>
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1567 bytes --]

The latest changes seem to have broken my hanging indent filter again. I 
tried to return to the previous version (see below), but this does not work 
either. What am I doing wrong.

And again: Wouldn’t it be a good idea if the latex writer added a 
`\begin{references} \item [entry] \item [entry] …  \end{references}` 
environment itself, with a suitable definition in the template(s)?

~~~
#!/usr/bin/env runhaskell

-- addRefEnvItem.hs

import Text.Pandoc.JSON

main :: IO ()
main = toJSONFilter addRefEnvItem

addRefEnvItem :: Maybe Format -> Block -> Block
addRefEnvItem (Just (Format "latex"))
  (Div ("",["references"],[]) (h@(Header _ _ _) : blocks)) =
  Div ("",["references"],[]) 
    ( [h, latex "\\begin{references}\\sloppy"] ++ 
    concatMap addItem blocks ++ [latex "\\end{references}"] )
  where latex = RawBlock (Format "latex")
addRefEnvItem _ x = x

addItem :: Block -> [Block]
addItem x = [RawBlock (Format "latex") "\\item", x]
~~~ 

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MACFARLANE]

+++ nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org [Sep 25 15 01:38 ]:
>   The latest changes seem to have broken my hanging indent filter again.
>   I tried to return to the previous version (see below), but this does
>   not work either. What am I doing wrong.
>   And again: Wouldn’t it be a good idea if the latex writer added a
>   `\begin{references} \item [entry] \item [entry] …  \end{references}`
>   environment itself, with a suitable definition in the template(s)?


Yes, this is probably a good idea.  Do you want to propose
a default definition of the environment?


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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1520 bytes --]

Sure, as above; gives a nice hanging indent:

~~~
\newenvironment{references} {\list{}{%
    \leftmargin1.5em%
    \itemindent-\leftmargin%
    \itemsep0.5ex%
    \parsep0pt%
    }}
    {\endlist}
~~~


On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 6:07:52 PM UTC, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> +++ nickba...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org <javascript:> [Sep 25 15 01:38 ]: 
> >   The latest changes seem to have broken my hanging indent filter again. 
> >   I tried to return to the previous version (see below), but this does 
> >   not work either. What am I doing wrong. 
> >   And again: Wouldn’t it be a good idea if the latex writer added a 
> >   `\begin{references} \item [entry] \item [entry] …  \end{references}` 
> >   environment itself, with a suitable definition in the template(s)? 
>
>
> Yes, this is probably a good idea.  Do you want to propose 
> a default definition of the environment? 
>
>
>

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Jason White]

John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> I've implemented this in the dev version.  You can
> pull from github and install using `stack install`
> or `cabal install` if you want to try it.

Thanks. I'll try it soon. I gratefully appreciate your moving it to the head
of your development queue.

Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 08/29/2015 04:21 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:
> Followup:  I think it makes more sense to use a div
> with id="references" rather than a section.  That gives
> maximum flexibility; e.g. you can insert the bibliography
> without a section header, or under a header and some
> preliminary text.  So the proposal is that if the document
> contains a Div with id "references", the bibliography
> is inserted there; otherwise at the end of the document
> (in which case it is also put in a special Div, as it
> is now).

John,

I think it would be better to avoid mixing markups (Markdown and XML).
This is especially difficult for new users with no coding background.

The same flexibility can be added with a title such as:

# Referenzen {#references}

Here comes the preliminary text.

After them, references are automatically inserted.

If you don’t what to have titles for bibliographies, it is easier to
make them invisible.



Pablo



> +++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:04 ]:
>>> Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of
>>> the document for insertion of the bibliography? There
>>> might, for example, need to be appendices or other material
>>> following the list of references.
>>
>> Currently you can only do this by generating the
>> bibliography as a separate document, and inserting it
>> manually (e.g. using a template).
>>
>> There's a proposal in
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/771 that I think should
>> probably be implemented.  The idea is that pandoc-citeproc
>> would look for a header with id "references".  If it finds
>> one, it inserts the bibliography there.  If it doesn't,
>> it behaves like it currently does and appends the
>> bibliography to the end of the document.  As far as I can
>> see, this would be pretty easy to implement.
>>
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1612 makes a similar
>> proposal for table of contents, and
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1720 for footnotes,
>> but those are independent and could be done separately
>> or not at all.



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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

+++ Pablo Rodríguez [Aug 30 15 21:06 ]:
>On 08/29/2015 04:21 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:
>> Followup:  I think it makes more sense to use a div
>> with id="references" rather than a section.  That gives
>> maximum flexibility; e.g. you can insert the bibliography
>> without a section header, or under a header and some
>> preliminary text.  So the proposal is that if the document
>> contains a Div with id "references", the bibliography
>> is inserted there; otherwise at the end of the document
>> (in which case it is also put in a special Div, as it
>> is now).
>
>John,
>
>I think it would be better to avoid mixing markups (Markdown and XML).
>This is especially difficult for new users with no coding background.
>
>The same flexibility can be added with a title such as:
>
># Referenzen {#references}
>
>Here comes the preliminary text.
>
>After them, references are automatically inserted.
>
>If you don’t what to have titles for bibliographies, it is easier to
>make them invisible.

I considered that, but the div approach is much more
flexible.  Someone might want the bibliography to appear
in a place other than right after a section title.
Someone might want a title, then some introductory text,
then the bibliography, then some more explanatory text.
And so on.

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 08/31/2015 07:52 AM, John MacFarlane wrote:
> [...]
> I considered that, but the div approach is much more
> flexible.  Someone might want the bibliography to appear
> in a place other than right after a section title.
> Someone might want a title, then some introductory text,
> then the bibliography, then some more explanatory text.
> And so on.

OK, I see the point and I agree. Having an special syntax for span divs
would make it easier.

Any chance that a similar feature could be implemented for being able to
locate the TOC and the footnotes?

A document with a bibliography may have footnotes and probably a TOC.
I’d would say that more documents contain footnotes and TOC that references.

Being able to place all contents automatically generated by pandoc would
be a nice feature.

Many thanks for your help,


Pablo
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MACFARLANE]

+++ Pablo Rodríguez [Aug 31 15 20:28 ]:
>On 08/31/2015 07:52 AM, John MacFarlane wrote:
>> [...]
>> I considered that, but the div approach is much more
>> flexible.  Someone might want the bibliography to appear
>> in a place other than right after a section title.
>> Someone might want a title, then some introductory text,
>> then the bibliography, then some more explanatory text.
>> And so on.
>
>OK, I see the point and I agree. Having an special syntax for span divs
>would make it easier.
>
>Any chance that a similar feature could be implemented for being able to
>locate the TOC and the footnotes?

For TOC, maybe.  But that would be a much bigger change, because
unlike bibliographies, TOC is now handled in templates --
this would require changing the way TOC is handled in every
writer.

For footnotes, maybe.  Here the difficulty is that this
method of controlling placement only works in formats (like
HTML / EPUB) that don't have dedicated support for
footnotes, and we just place them manually.


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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[BP Jonsson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5000 bytes --]

While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for divs
and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that issue with
the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are orthogonal. In
principle we could use any markup to signal "the references go here", but
the idea that that markup should be independent both of any particular
place in the document and of the header (if any!) used for the references
section is a sound one, and the marked div solution is a good one,
semantically speaking.

/bpj

söndag 30 augusti 2015 skrev Pablo Rodríguez <oinos-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org>:

> On 08/29/2015 04:21 PM, John MacFarlane wrote:
> > Followup:  I think it makes more sense to use a div
> > with id="references" rather than a section.  That gives
> > maximum flexibility; e.g. you can insert the bibliography
> > without a section header, or under a header and some
> > preliminary text.  So the proposal is that if the document
> > contains a Div with id "references", the bibliography
> > is inserted there; otherwise at the end of the document
> > (in which case it is also put in a special Div, as it
> > is now).
>
> John,
>
> I think it would be better to avoid mixing markups (Markdown and XML).
> This is especially difficult for new users with no coding background.
>
> The same flexibility can be added with a title such as:
>
> # Referenzen {#references}
>
> Here comes the preliminary text.
>
> After them, references are automatically inserted.
>
> If you don’t what to have titles for bibliographies, it is easier to
> make them invisible.
>
>
>
> Pablo
>
>
>
> > +++ John MacFarlane [Aug 29 15 07:04 ]:
> >>> Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of
> >>> the document for insertion of the bibliography? There
> >>> might, for example, need to be appendices or other material
> >>> following the list of references.
> >>
> >> Currently you can only do this by generating the
> >> bibliography as a separate document, and inserting it
> >> manually (e.g. using a template).
> >>
> >> There's a proposal in
> >> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/771 that I think should
> >> probably be implemented.  The idea is that pandoc-citeproc
> >> would look for a header with id "references".  If it finds
> >> one, it inserts the bibliography there.  If it doesn't,
> >> it behaves like it currently does and appends the
> >> bibliography to the end of the document.  As far as I can
> >> see, this would be pretty easy to implement.
> >>
> >> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1612 makes a similar
> >> proposal for table of contents, and
> >> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1720 for footnotes,
> >> but those are independent and could be done separately
> >> or not at all.
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.ousia.tk
>
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for
> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that
> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are
> orthogonal.

Many thanks for your reply, BPJ.

Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I
was writing a manual in Spanish, but I’m afraid Markdown is too
complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging.

Probably I’m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
proccessing programs for average users.

> In principle we could use any markup to signal "the
> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independent
> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!)
> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div
> solution is a good one, semantically speaking.

I didn’t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speaking.

My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people.
Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement
bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user.

Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should
be an easy task.

The problem I see with Markdown (and I’m afraid CommonMark doesn’t solve
it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people.

The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines.
Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with
titles?

It is a consistent rule for computers (in fact they are two). But The
previous rule isn’t consistent for persons.

Sorry, this is the reason I want to use pandoc, but I won’t try to
explain unnecessarily complicated exceptions.

Many thanks for your help,


Pablo
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Daniel Staal]

--As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is alleged to 
have said:

> On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
>> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for
>> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that
>> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are
>> orthogonal.
>
> Many thanks for your reply, BPJ.
>
> Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I
> was writing a manual in Spanish, but I’m afraid Markdown is too
> complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging.
>
> Probably I’m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
> proccessing programs for average users.

Probably true.  There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but 
pandoc isn't an editor.  It's a converter.  The editors give you a nice 
WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts to 
common markup.

>> In principle we could use any markup to signal "the
>> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independent
>> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!)
>> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div
>> solution is a good one, semantically speaking.
>
> I didn’t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speaking.
>
> My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people.
> Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement
> bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user.

Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs.  Headers don't 
create new sections.  (Well, there is an option to make them create such, 
but semantically and under normal use I've often seen headers within a 
section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text.)  They 
often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always.

> Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should
> be an easy task.

Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent.  ;)  This 'visible' marker 
(which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text 
instead.  Depending on what the text was, basically.  Which will eventually 
surprise someone.

(And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers 
automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the markup.)

> The problem I see with Markdown (and I’m afraid CommonMark doesn’t
> solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people.
>
> The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines.
> Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with
> titles?

I honestly think you're over-thinking this.

Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text.  *Don't* try to 
explain them in terms of paragraphs.  Simply say that a titles are a single 
line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title.

A paragraph is any consecutive non-empty lines that *aren't* something 
else.  That 'something else' could be a title, or a list, or a table, or a 
code block, or a line block, or a quote block, or anything else that I'm 
missing or gets implemented in the future.  (Some of which can contain 
paragraphs, of course.)  We usually shorten it because people tend to 
understand 'this is a paragraph, and this is how you do $X instead of a 
paragraph' quite well.

> It is a consistent rule for computers (in fact they are two). But The
> previous rule isn’t consistent for persons.

I just listed seven.  ;)  Or one, depending on how you look at it.

And that's really my point: You're looking at it as seven, when really it's 
the one.  You're the one trying to go top-down and define it the 
complicated way.

> Sorry, this is the reason I want to use pandoc, but I won’t try to
> explain unnecessarily complicated exceptions.

But the exceptions are the rule: A paragraph is what isn't something else. 
*Everything* is an exception.  And that's really what makes Markdown and 
CommonMark clean: You only mark up what needs to be differentiated from the 
main text.

In the end, if you don't want exceptions, you end up with something like 
XML, which has a lot of visual noise because *everything* has to be covered 
in the 'normal' case.

Daniel T. Staal

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 08/31/2015 09:29 PM, Daniel Staal wrote:
> --As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is alleged to 
> have said:
> 
>> On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
>>> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for
>>> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that
>>> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are
>>> orthogonal.
>>
>> Many thanks for your reply, BPJ.
>>
>> Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I
>> was writing a manual in Spanish, but I’m afraid Markdown is too
>> complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging.
>>
>> Probably I’m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
>> proccessing programs for average users.
> 
> Probably true.  There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but 
> pandoc isn't an editor.  It's a converter.  The editors give you a nice 
> WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts to 
> common markup.

Many thanks for your reply, Daniel.

The problem with visual editors is that users many not know what they
are actually doing.

In that case, I think there is no gain in using pandoc.

>>> In principle we could use any markup to signal "the
>>> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independent
>>> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!)
>>> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div
>>> solution is a good one, semantically speaking.
>>
>> I didn’t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speaking.
>>
>> My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people.
>> Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement
>> bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user.
> 
> Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs.  Headers don't 
> create new sections.  (Well, there is an option to make them create such, 
> but semantically and under normal use I've often seen headers within a 
> section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text.)  They 
> often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always.

It may be my own approach to sections and their titles. Being able to
wrap a section with title and contents into a division is essential to
format chapters (or other sections) such as copyright, dedication,
epigraph and colophon pages as different from other chapters.

>> Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should
>> be an easy task.
> 
> Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent.  ;)  This 'visible' marker 
> (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text 
> instead.  Depending on what the text was, basically.  Which will eventually 
> surprise someone.
> 
> (And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers 
> automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the markup.)

My comments don’t make sense now, because the implemented solution
allows to add text both before and after the bibliography. I hadn’t
thought of that possibility.

My comment now is to avoid using XML syntax, since it is harder for
newcomers.

>> The problem I see with Markdown (and I’m afraid CommonMark doesn’t
>> solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people.
>>
>> The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines.
>> Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with
>> titles?
> 
> I honestly think you're over-thinking this.

It may be. My fundamental mistake may be be trying to make sense of
Markdown as lightweight markup.

> Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text.  *Don't* try to 
> explain them in terms of paragraphs.  Simply say that a titles are a single 
> line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title.

It was only a minor issue. But do you really think that there is a need
to limit titles to a single line? In other words, does this exception
make sense?

I’m not trying to change it (mainly because of backwards compatibility),
but I don’t see any reason to handle titles as block elements in a
different way from paragraphs (in regard to this rule).


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Daniel Staal]

(Trimmed)

--As of September 1, 2015 7:55:18 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is alleged to 
have said:

> On 08/31/2015 09:29 PM, Daniel Staal wrote:
>> --As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is alleged to
>> have said:

>>> Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I
>>> was writing a manual in Spanish, but I’m afraid Markdown is too
>>> complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging.
>>>
>>> Probably I’m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
>>> proccessing programs for average users.
>>
>> Probably true.  There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but
>> pandoc isn't an editor.  It's a converter.  The editors give you a nice
>> WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts
>> to  common markup.
>
> Many thanks for your reply, Daniel.
>
> The problem with visual editors is that users many not know what they
> are actually doing.
>
> In that case, I think there is no gain in using pandoc.

There is some gain - the markup is structurally simpler than many others, 
and it's more cross-platform and widely specified.  Basically, you get a 
more compatible and easier to work with file, even if the users don't 
directly deal with it.

>> Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs.  Headers
>> don't  create new sections.  (Well, there is an option to make them
>> create such,  but semantically and under normal use I've often seen
>> headers within a  section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of
>> the text.)  They  often are placed at the start of new sections, but not
>> always.
>
> It may be my own approach to sections and their titles. Being able to
> wrap a section with title and contents into a division is essential to
> format chapters (or other sections) such as copyright, dedication,
> epigraph and colophon pages as different from other chapters.

True, but that's not the only way they are used, just the most common, 
especially in longer works.

>>> Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should
>>> be an easy task.
>>
>> Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent.  ;)  This 'visible' marker
>> (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text
>> instead.  Depending on what the text was, basically.  Which will
>> eventually  surprise someone.
>>
>> (And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers
>> automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the
>> markup.)
>
> My comments don’t make sense now, because the implemented solution
> allows to add text both before and after the bibliography. I hadn’t
> thought of that possibility.
>
> My comment now is to avoid using XML syntax, since it is harder for
> newcomers.

Yeah, there's was a lot of discussion over the HTML syntax.  (It's more 
HTML than XML, really, even though HTML is basically a subset.)  And other 
syntaxes...

Basically, no one could agree on what a more Markdown-like syntax was, and 
since Markdown passes through HTML syntax a temporary solution was to 
enable reading of the HTML.  If someone can come up with a good Markdown 
syntax for divs and spans I think John's still open to adopting it, but the 
current syntax doesn't prevent that and it *was* agreed that divs and spans 
were needed.

So, to sum up: This works, and if you have a good idea for what the syntax 
for a div or a span *should* be, we're all ears.  ;)

>>> The problem I see with Markdown (and I’m afraid CommonMark doesn’t
>>> solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people.
>>>
>>> The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines.
>>> Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with
>>> titles?
>>
>> I honestly think you're over-thinking this.
>
> It may be. My fundamental mistake may be be trying to make sense of
> Markdown as lightweight markup.
>
>> Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text.  *Don't* try
>> to  explain them in terms of paragraphs.  Simply say that a titles are a
>> single  line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title.
>
> It was only a minor issue. But do you really think that there is a need
> to limit titles to a single line? In other words, does this exception
> make sense?
>
> I’m not trying to change it (mainly because of backwards compatibility),
> but I don’t see any reason to handle titles as block elements in a
> different way from paragraphs (in regard to this rule).

Well, first off, they aren't really titles.  They are *headings.*  (There's 
only one title per document, after all...)  And part of this is explained 
by Markdown's roots as a text-to-html converter; HTML heading elements are 
block elements that can't contain other block elements (like paragraphs), 
so it was basically assumed.

But in general, I can see your point.  There's no real reason to assume a 
heading is any specific length.  Practically, you don't want a heading 
that's to long because most people won't read it, but that doesn't 
necessarily mean we should limit it.

On the other hand, *most* titles are something that will fit into one easy 
line.  (And note that Pandoc doesn't limit the length of a line...)  One of 
the things I like about Pandoc is that it's a 90% solution - it doesn't try 
to cover every last possible variation, if that would unnecessarily 
complicate the markup.   Keeping headings to one line makes the markup 
simple and easy to read, and covers 95+ percent of actual use, so it may 
not be worth complicating the markup just to cover a few more final percent 
of use-cases.  If you really need some fancy long multi-line title, you 
probably will want it laid out and viewed in a specific way for your use, 
and there are usually programs specifically designed for that use that you 
can do that with.  (Even if you are giving up the convertablity and ease of 
use of Markdown.)

Daniel T. Staal

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 09/01/2015 09:31 PM, Daniel Staal wrote:
> --As of September 1, 2015 7:55:18 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is alleged to 
> have said:
>> [...]
>> The problem with visual editors is that users many not know what they
>> are actually doing.
>>
>> In that case, I think there is no gain in using pandoc.
> 
> There is some gain - the markup is structurally simpler than many others, 
> and it's more cross-platform and widely specified.  Basically, you get a 
> more compatible and easier to work with file, even if the users don't 
> directly deal with it.

Cross-platform compatibility depends in that particular case on having
the tool that deals with pandoc the right way.

I have never used a visual tool for Markdown. But I’m almost sure that
there would be some coding that could only be edited in the source.

>> My comment now is to avoid using XML syntax, since it is harder for
>> newcomers.
> [...]
> So, to sum up: This works, and if you have a good idea for what the syntax 
> for a div or a span *should* be, we're all ears.  ;)

I made my proposal, but you didn’t listen to me ;-):

[this should be a span]{.span #unique-span}

[[[ {.div #unique-div}
and following the same logic

this should be a division
]]]

This syntax is consistent with hyperlinks. And having different opening
and closing characters makes it clearer for ordinary users (remember, no
programers or computer geeks, just people ;-)).

Of course, I don’t claim to have the definitive solution. But I wonder
whether anyone may have this.

And after some years (https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/168), any
syntax may do the job.

I mean, I have reasons to support my proposal. But I prefer other
implementation (surronding the text) than eternal discussion on proposals.

>> It was only a minor issue. But do you really think that there is a need
>> to limit titles to a single line? In other words, does this exception
>> make sense?
>>
>> I’m not trying to change it (mainly because of backwards compatibility),
>> but I don’t see any reason to handle titles as block elements in a
>> different way from paragraphs (in regard to this rule).
> 
> Well, first off, they aren't really titles.  They are *headings.*  (There's 
> only one title per document, after all...)  And part of this is explained 
> by Markdown's roots as a text-to-html converter; HTML heading elements are 
> block elements that can't contain other block elements (like paragraphs), 
> so it was basically assumed.

You are the native speaker, but I don’t think title is wrong here
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/title). Heading seems to be a
more specific denomination.

> But in general, I can see your point.  There's no real reason to assume a 
> heading is any specific length.  Practically, you don't want a heading 
> that's to long because most people won't read it, but that doesn't 
> necessarily mean we should limit it.

It’s not only that. What happens if I use Markdown to format a classical
author. It may be the original German version of the “Critique of Pure
Reason”, with contains such a title (http://korpora.org/Kant/aa03/042.html):

Idee und Eintheilung einer besonderen Wissenschaft unter dem Namen einer
Kritik der reinen Vernunft

If it doesn’t fit on a single line, am I supposed to rephrase the heading?

But we agree here, I don’t want to change this rule in Markdown.


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

+++ Pablo Rodríguez [Sep 01 15 19:55 ]:

>My comment now is to avoid using XML syntax, since it is harder for
>newcomers.

Eventually we may have some dedicated markdownish syntax for
divs.  But another approach would be to invent your own
synonym, say !BIBLIOGRAPHY, and either use a simple
preprocessing script or a filter to make pandoc treat it
like a div.

>It was only a minor issue. But do you really think that there is a need
>to limit titles to a single line? In other words, does this exception
>make sense?

Arguably it's a bad decision.  But it allows you to put
titles next to paragraphs with no intervening space, as
many people seem to want to do.

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 09/02/2015 05:03 AM, John MacFarlane wrote:
> +++ Pablo Rodríguez [Sep 01 15 19:55 ]:
> 
>> My comment now is to avoid using XML syntax, since it is harder for
>> newcomers.
> 
> Eventually we may have some dedicated markdownish syntax for
> divs.

This is what we all are expecting.

> But another approach would be to invent your own
> synonym, say !BIBLIOGRAPHY, and either use a simple
> preprocessing script or a filter to make pandoc treat it
> like a div.

I know that this is possible, but I’d rather avoid this. I prefer to
wait for a more proper Markdown syntax.

>> It was only a minor issue. But do you really think that there is a need
>> to limit titles to a single line? In other words, does this exception
>> make sense?
> 
> Arguably it's a bad decision.  But it allows you to put
> titles next to paragraphs with no intervening space, as
> many people seem to want to do.

It is the way it is in Markdown and I don’t want to change it.

But I wonder how readable these documents really are. And automatic line
breaking should be disabled when you have longer titles (sorry, I meant
headings ;-)).

Many thanks for reply,


Pablo
-- 
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[BP Jonsson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8587 bytes --]

@Daniel Yes I know there are WYSIWYG editors for markdown -- I came across
one when looking in vain for an Android editor with md syntax highlighting
-- but to me that seems like a contradiction in terms. I use md because it
is *not* WYSIWYG, yet easily readable!

@Pablo In my experience there are people who are comfortable with WYSIWYG
and people who are not. The latter grasp markdown immediately, while the
former are as annoyed by markup as the latter are by WYSIWYG. I tried to
set things up so that my son, who quite understandably was annoyed by htm,l
could edit details on his company website in markdown, but he found that
equally annoying, so he leaves all the actual editing to me. By contrast
the first thing I do when getting a manuscript as a .doc(x) file, which is
most of the time, is to convert it to markdown. I even wrote a Perl program
to convert styled spans in html exported by LibreOffice into em, strong
etc. which I so far still prefer to pandoc's .docx reader. Clients mostly
care about getting a readable translated/edited PDF/.doc(x)/RTF/LaTeX
document back, not how I made it. This doesn't mean I never have to work in
WYSIWYG but I do my best to avoid it for actual text work since for some
reason those styling buttons are terribly distracting! :-)

/bpj

måndag 31 augusti 2015 skrev Daniel Staal <DStaal-Jdbf3xiKgS8@public.gmane.org>:

> --As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is alleged to
> have said:
>
> On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
>>
>>> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for
>>> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that
>>> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are
>>> orthogonal.
>>>
>>
>> Many thanks for your reply, BPJ.
>>
>> Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I
>> was writing a manual in Spanish, but I’m afraid Markdown is too
>> complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging.
>>
>> Probably I’m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
>> proccessing programs for average users.
>>
>
> Probably true.  There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but
> pandoc isn't an editor.  It's a converter.  The editors give you a nice
> WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts to
> common markup.
>
> In principle we could use any markup to signal "the
>>> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independent
>>> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!)
>>> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div
>>> solution is a good one, semantically speaking.
>>>
>>
>> I didn’t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speaking.
>>
>> My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people.
>> Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement
>> bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user.
>>
>
> Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs.  Headers don't
> create new sections.  (Well, there is an option to make them create such,
> but semantically and under normal use I've often seen headers within a
> section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text.)  They
> often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always.
>
> Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should
>> be an easy task.
>>
>
> Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent.  ;)  This 'visible' marker
> (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text
> instead.  Depending on what the text was, basically.  Which will eventually
> surprise someone.
>
> (And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers
> automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the markup.)
>
> The problem I see with Markdown (and I’m afraid CommonMark doesn’t
>> solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people.
>>
>> The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines.
>> Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with
>> titles?
>>
>
> I honestly think you're over-thinking this.
>
> Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text.  *Don't* try to
> explain them in terms of paragraphs.  Simply say that a titles are a single
> line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title.
>
> A paragraph is any consecutive non-empty lines that *aren't* something
> else.  That 'something else' could be a title, or a list, or a table, or a
> code block, or a line block, or a quote block, or anything else that I'm
> missing or gets implemented in the future.  (Some of which can contain
> paragraphs, of course.)  We usually shorten it because people tend to
> understand 'this is a paragraph, and this is how you do $X instead of a
> paragraph' quite well.
>
> It is a consistent rule for computers (in fact they are two). But The
>> previous rule isn’t consistent for persons.
>>
>
> I just listed seven.  ;)  Or one, depending on how you look at it.
>
> And that's really my point: You're looking at it as seven, when really
> it's the one.  You're the one trying to go top-down and define it the
> complicated way.
>
> Sorry, this is the reason I want to use pandoc, but I won’t try to
>> explain unnecessarily complicated exceptions.
>>
>
> But the exceptions are the rule: A paragraph is what isn't something else.
> *Everything* is an exception.  And that's really what makes Markdown and
> CommonMark clean: You only mark up what needs to be differentiated from the
> main text.
>
> In the end, if you don't want exceptions, you end up with something like
> XML, which has a lot of visual noise because *everything* has to be covered
> in the 'normal' case.
>
> Daniel T. Staal
>
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 09/01/2015 09:18 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
> @Pablo In my experience there are people who are comfortable with
> WYSIWYG and people who are not. The latter grasp markdown immediately,
> while the former are as annoyed by markup as the latter are by WYSIWYG.

Many thanks for your reply, BP.

My scenario is different: I want a common source to generate ePub and
PDF files. The source would be common to me and the author of the text.

In my experience, people understand lighthweight far better than XML markup.

And even ignoring that, if Markdown is lightweight markup, it should
avoid any XML syntax by definition.


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk

Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[BP Jonsson]

Den 2015-09-01 kl. 20:00, skrev Pablo Rodríguez:
> On 09/01/2015 09:18 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
>> @Pablo In my experience there are people who are comfortable with
>> WYSIWYG and people who are not. The latter grasp markdown immediately,
>> while the former are as annoyed by markup as the latter are by WYSIWYG.
>
> Many thanks for your reply, BP.
>
> My scenario is different: I want a common source to generate ePub and
> PDF files. The source would be common to me and the author of the text.

It is certainly the case for me too, some of the time: documents 
which should work both as PDF and HTML, but I use pandoc also when 
I only target PDF or doc(x)/odt.

>
> In my experience, people understand lighthweight far better than XML markup.

Certainly.  It is far easier to read, and I do think that it is 
easier to grasp the difference between different elements.  In *ML 
all markup looks the same, which doesn't help to see the big picture.

>
> And even ignoring that, if Markdown is lightweight markup, it should
> avoid any XML syntax by definition.

Agreed, but I will rather have generic containers in their present 
form rather than not at all! FWIW I started working on a filter 
which lets you overload link markup for spans.  It looks for 
'links' having an 'url' that is a period followed by ASCII 
letters, digits and underscores likethe current class markup and 
converts that into a span.  You can also specify further 
attributes or raw markup for spans -- including real spans -- with 
a given class, or inject raw markup for any format.
I'm swamped in work ATM but will finish it as and when I'm not.

Den 2015-09-01 kl. 19:55, skrev Pablo Rodríguez:
 > On 08/31/2015 09:29 PM, Daniel Staal wrote:
 >> >--As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is 
alleged to
 >> >have said:
 >> >
 >>> >>On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
 >>>> >>>While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML 
syntax for
 >>>> >>>divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to 
confuse that
 >>>> >>>issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or 
spans, which are
 >>>> >>>orthogonal.
 >>> >>
 >>> >>Many thanks for your reply, BPJ.
 >>> >>
 >>> >>Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) 
to anyone. I
 >>> >>was writing a manual in Spanish, but I’m afraid Markdown is too
 >>> >>complicated to explain to people with no background in text 
tagging.
 >>> >>
 >>> >>Probably I’m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
 >>> >>proccessing programs for average users.
 >> >
 >> >Probably true.  There are Markdown editors that aim for that 
market, but
 >> >pandoc isn't an editor.  It's a converter.  The editors give 
you a nice
 >> >WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy 
shortcuts to
 >> >common markup.
 > Many thanks for your reply, Daniel.
 >
 > The problem with visual editors is that users many not know 
what they
 > are actually doing.
 >
 > In that case, I think there is no gain in using pandoc.
 >

I think there is. I have converted (no pun intended!) at least one 
of my authors to Markdown/pandoc, and his documents have become 
much easier to work with not only because they're Markdown when I 
get them.
WYSIWYG word processors promote non-semantic markup[^1]). Consider 
how most WP users indicate a heading: they highlight the text of a 
paragraph and make it 18pt bold rather than applying the named 
styles which the WP usually provides.

Even so the XHTML exported by LibreOffice (I won't even consider 
MS products!) is stupid evil and wrong: all styles, both automatic 
and named are converted into so many `<p>` and `<span>` elements 
with CSS styles applied to classes named either automatically 
random, or after the named styles with an absolutely stupid 
conversion scheme where spaces become `_20_` because SPACE is at 
code/char point `\x20`! I've even had to write my own program to 
clean up that mess as automatically as possible[^2].
In a way generic HTML containers (span and div) were a leap 
backwards because they made possible almost entirely unsemantic 
HTML, worse than what we had when people used i and b rather than 
em and strong (that conversion is a no-brainer compared to what I 
need to do with the LO XHTML, which is technically compliant but 
junk all the same!

With Markdown anyone uses semantic markup even if they are not 
aware of doing so, and with Pandoc the markup of the converted 
*ML/*TeX/whatever becomes equally semantic.
Admittedly authors not only make human editors' lives difficult, 
but also possible, but getting people to effortlessly apply 
semantic markup[^3] would make the lives of editors and teachers 
much easier, and save a lot of other resources as well.

Den 2015-09-01 kl. 21:31, skrev Daniel Staal:
 > Well, first off, they aren't really titles. They are *headings.*

I think we have a translation issue here. 'Heading' is derived 
from Latin _titulus_ in Romance languages.

/bpj

[^1]: Somewhere in there there is markup in one form or another, 
nowadays usually XML, which looks absolutely horrible if you 
unpack those masqueraded zip archives and look at it!

[^2]: https://github.com/bpj/change-html-attrs

[^3]: That *could* certainly be done in a 'WYSIWYG' WP if the 
size- and font-changing commands were hidden away three menus deep 
and the toolbars contained buttons for ordinary/strong emphasis, 
major/medium/minor heading, fixed-width, link and nothing more, 
and a carriage return automatically inserting a skip! I've 
actually considered creating a LibreOffice so customized as far as 
possible for distribution to elementary level students. It 
wouldn't surprise me if it already exists!

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Daniel Staal]

--As of September 2, 2015 12:35:45 PM +0200, BP Jonsson is alleged to have 
said:

> Den 2015-09-01 kl. 21:31, skrev Daniel Staal:
>  > Well, first off, they aren't really titles. They are *headings.*
>
> I think we have a translation issue here. 'Heading' is derived from Latin
> _titulus_ in Romance languages.

--As for the rest, it is mine.

Which could mean something if English - and Pandoc - didn't *also* have 
'title', implying that both of them see some distinction between the two 
concepts.  ;)

Daniel T. Staal

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 09/02/2015 07:37 PM, Daniel Staal wrote:
> --As of September 2, 2015 12:35:45 PM +0200, BP Jonsson is alleged to have 
> said:
> 
>> Den 2015-09-01 kl. 21:31, skrev Daniel Staal:
>>  > Well, first off, they aren't really titles. They are *headings.*
>>
>> I think we have a translation issue here. 'Heading' is derived from Latin
>> _titulus_ in Romance languages.
> 
> --As for the rest, it is mine.
> 
> Which could mean something if English - and Pandoc - didn't *also* have 
> 'title', implying that both of them see some distinction between the two 
> concepts.  ;)

I’m not a Latinist myself, although I would say that heading comes from
_caput_ (or _capitulum_).

_Caput_ is head in Latin and _capitulum_ is chapter (and a diminutive of
_caput_).

Just in case it helps (to confusion :-(),


Pablo
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 09/02/2015 12:35 PM, BP Jonsson wrote:
> Den 2015-09-01 kl. 20:00, skrev Pablo Rodríguez:
>> [...]
>> And even ignoring that, if Markdown is lightweight markup, it should
>> avoid any XML syntax by definition.
> 
> Agreed, but I will rather have generic containers in their present 
> form rather than not at all! FWIW I started working on a filter 
> which lets you overload link markup for spans.

Many thanks for your kind offer, but I prefer not to user filters when
not strictrly required.

I think I’m not sayin nonsense when I propose that Markdown should be
free from any XML markup in the (not so) long run.

Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk

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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John Muccigrosso]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1639 bytes --]

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 1:29:26 PM UTC-4, Jason White wrote:
>
> Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of the document 
> for insertion of the bibliography? There might, for example, need to be 
> appendices or other material following the list of references. 
>
> LaTeX can do this easily, of course, but I haven’t found anything in the 
> documentation to suggest how to achieve it with Pandoc. 
>

This seems to have been implemented by having the bib be inserted into any 
div with an id element of refs.

Do I understand correctly that the only way to get a Div with such an 
element out of a markdown document is to insert html like the following?

<div id="refs"></div>


I wonder whether this insertion rule couldn't be expanded to include at 
least any heading with such an id element, especially now that it's very 
easy to provide such id's in markdown. This would avoid the use of raw html 
inside a markdown document and also leverage pandoc's ability to insert 
such id elements into headings.


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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John Muccigrosso]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1639 bytes --]

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 1:29:26 PM UTC-4, Jason White wrote:
>
> Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of the document 
> for insertion of the bibliography? There might, for example, need to be 
> appendices or other material following the list of references. 
>
> LaTeX can do this easily, of course, but I haven’t found anything in the 
> documentation to suggest how to achieve it with Pandoc. 
>

This seems to have been implemented by having the bib be inserted into any 
div with an id element of refs.

Do I understand correctly that the only way to get a Div with such an 
element out of a markdown document is to insert html like the following?

<div id="refs"></div>


I wonder whether this insertion rule couldn't be expanded to include at 
least any heading with such an id element, especially now that it's very 
easy to provide such id's in markdown. This would avoid the use of raw html 
inside a markdown document and also leverage pandoc's ability to insert 
such id elements into headings.


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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John MacFarlane]

Yes, making it work for a header with id 'refs' would be
sensible, I suppose.  You could put up an issue suggesting
this (really it should go on pandoc-citeproc).


+++ John Muccigrosso [Jan 23 16 10:04 ]:
>   On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 1:29:26 PM UTC-4, Jason White wrote:
>
>     Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of the
>     document for insertion of the bibliography? There might, for
>     example, need to be appendices or other material following the list
>     of references.
>     LaTeX can do this easily, of course, but I haven’t found anything in
>     the documentation to suggest how to achieve it with Pandoc.
>
>   This seems to have been implemented by having the bib be inserted into
>   any div with an id element of refs.
>   Do I understand correctly that the only way to get a Div with such an
>   element out of a markdown document is to insert html like the
>   following?
>   <div id="refs"></div>
>   I wonder whether this insertion rule couldn't be expanded to include at
>   least any heading with such an id element, especially now that it's
>   very easy to provide such id's in markdown. This would avoid the use of
>   raw html inside a markdown document and also leverage pandoc's ability
>   to insert such id elements into headings.
>
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Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[John Muccigrosso]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2074 bytes --]

On Saturday, January 23, 2016 at 5:15:07 PM UTC-5, John MacFarlane wrote:
>
> Yes, making it work for a header with id 'refs' would be 
> sensible, I suppose.  You could put up an issue suggesting 
> this (really it should go on pandoc-citeproc). 
>
>
> +++ John Muccigrosso [Jan 23 16 10:04 ]: 
> >   On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 1:29:26 PM UTC-4, Jason White wrote: 
> > 
> >     Is there a way to specify a location other than the end of the 
> >     document for insertion of the bibliography? There might, for 
> >     example, need to be appendices or other material following the list 
> >     of references. 
> >     LaTeX can do this easily, of course, but I haven’t found anything in 
> >     the documentation to suggest how to achieve it with Pandoc. 
> > 
> >   This seems to have been implemented by having the bib be inserted into 
> >   any div with an id element of refs. 
> >   Do I understand correctly that the only way to get a Div with such an 
> >   element out of a markdown document is to insert html like the 
> >   following? 
> >   <div id="refs"></div> 
> >   I wonder whether this insertion rule couldn't be expanded to include 
> at 
> >   least any heading with such an id element, especially now that it's 
> >   very easy to provide such id's in markdown. This would avoid the use 
> of 
> >   raw html inside a markdown document and also leverage pandoc's ability 
> >   to insert such id elements into headings. 
>

Done. 

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