From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/26796 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Joshua Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:02:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <557267e8-3f30-45aa-8b58-50fc6ba71531n@googlegroups.com> References: <965d161d-db68-439f-acab-c035c89ec0dfn@googlegroups.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_118_1098100352.1605121336346" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35748"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDTIVNN5REJBBOPKWD6QKGQE5XPZCUQ-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Wed Nov 11 20:02:21 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-oo1-f64.google.com ([209.85.161.64]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kcvNs-000993-Rn for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:02:20 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-oo1-f64.google.com with SMTP id f73sf1376763oob.16 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:02:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=9KJFVq+oFUM7I7cxE8wfDiHP1zWUjANhInOgu9BIaL0=; b=r6abHVZF2oy69swgq702IjP+ljrJeB0xLZ/A8UkXMTQAUPpsfCvU3Jr8DxkQK/eA55 M1N0p1hgG29lW8W3DEKnF+r0Mp43BCWqHqoqitPJN0GFlDJo7M8WhiHuEIWifsh0+nW6 A4BoOZnTC8olZJ1XNdqM/RdSA0HI0J5FIikPuGGQrjHhVMhu1yVNtFA6EoIpWdtWfU4a 9ysUEkqw6USYYH7H5+t/U95kFairzsB/4KWiP9qTrxud/hSgIdYvAvAsB2GgTu1V4Fg8 5EyvotUUMlD3F3UE29fUg7BUrn7ZcUp1O33GXvQI7Bllp70ApEoticEojrPpggh4xbes hPjw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=9KJFVq+oFUM7I7cxE8wfDiHP1zWUjANhInOgu9BIaL0=; b=d6L1L0g7hprmY9EkSUEKU13wW8+2YRhI4a9alWlHQxBlpE3FpuuSRnMPOS8Is/ofIN /9c6fkdMDbijPlB4+2qBTLj57gmheFduRzlP7EOO4ay1VV5S3r0MtujPJWMuTzhoJwXY SY9kkVqlbW9sE4xLvc4XuWQwT5PHniFl/kOJ3t19LkZZe+dkZreW0rcvZJZiEtKR0iYT Fo4q8KQntZTkmjohHwlQakB4dlSuajX9B9IGmlEa2awkNTTncxZnFB5RLZ33nP8HppAu Ojfi7JuxwjTBujWFuWIBTgBQPooKb/5CSt5QgxPDiivM2s/RmAqbGKAPacPS/4byJVqt Z85A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=9KJFVq+oFUM7I7cxE8wfDiHP1zWUjANhInOgu9BIaL0=; b=WgsIYCiNXWZYmqloC50jVF46vsoy27IfvAMakUTL2z5w8tfKYJHo+5MCnLYu2gPyTr nyXxwvLutlRQflY25eG+MZo4LXS5/vpKgURLByQhWXMjM6wA9hvyHxOcKxYnId9K2ybk A3KdtdSPXJMhryFFHh+8si6sIfeCbcttYi1I17OsWIqKTW3VWuWixOV9GkXegKLSn//Y KImEeKiZB09McEgSGMG6ektg9LfqfB17iPZ6Utu0KiUIooas9yk253Nj3EPRMZdvTZPh iIsL2RRiw+FRA7wl5eElZtV14NlsPgw0s+AFjBVqmNzfA5K8sy+VtNEz3N/tkKIXtCYm r9Ag== Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531yAkMc4ldCbJ8ehdF4es6JN4kK+2L55tTKv8m19N9mIZGSLog3 jsboYiEF9F1g9mZvIEHmkdA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwhJx7pHi8L8Tz1J/zX9NL23Sp2PFI6pZWJwraq7CCOOuVv3Pbf/gu1K2AxUSHMUrrMH+CoRA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:348:: with SMTP id h8mr310033ote.318.1605121339897; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:02:19 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 2002:a9d:6b0f:: with SMTP id g15ls134348otp.0.gmail; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:02:17 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6f90:: with SMTP id h16mr10663356otq.35.1605121337001; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:02:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:26796 Archived-At: ------=_Part_118_1098100352.1605121336346 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_119_2006657399.1605121336346" ------=_Part_119_2006657399.1605121336346 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time, but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here. After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the second issue, though. Suppose I type: Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.] This then renders: [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72. [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46. Whereas the behavior I intend: [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72. [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46. This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or maybe I simply cannot. Many thanks once again, Joshua On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote: > Joshua writes: > > > (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in > > footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm > > noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate > thread.) > > > > There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using > > chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example. > > Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1: > > [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*. > > [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72. > > [3] Augustine, ibid, 46. > > Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in note > 2 > > instead of using "ibid", > > It's not clear that's a problem. Indeed, we made a change to get > just this behavior. See > > > https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703 > https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813 > https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121 > > According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when > the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same > source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation > "consists of a single cite referencing the same item." > > In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is > satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation > is just "Augustine, The City of God." However, that in-text > citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the > whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing > the two items. So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in > this case. > > > and (2) it repeats the author in note 3. > > That's because (I assume) you've used an author-in-text citation > form, which always prints the author. Note the difference > between > > blah blah [@augustine:city]. > > and > > blah blah^[@augustine:city]. > > IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name > will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with > an author-in-text citation. > > We need this behavior because you might say > "@augustine:city says blah" in the main text, and we'd want > to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid." > This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed > to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/557267e8-3f30-45aa-8b58-50fc6ba71531n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_119_2006657399.1605121336346 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long = time, but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb projec= t here.

After consulting the style guides, it look= s like pandoc is keeping with the times and I am not. I'm still a bit confu= sed about your response to the second issue, though. Suppose I type:
<= div>Blah.^[@Augu= stineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in @AugustineC= ityGod2008, 46.]

This then renders:
[1] Augustine, City of= God, 72.
[2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.

Whereas th= e behavior I intend:
[1] Augustine, City of God, 72.
[2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.

This is the behavior I achieved be= fore upgrading pandoc, but I do not understand the directives I need to giv= e in order to achieve it now. Or maybe I simply cannot.

<= /div>
Many thanks once again,
Joshua

On Wednesday, Novem= ber 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:
Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations= in
> footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavi= or I'm
> noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separat= e thread.)
>
> There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using
> chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an exa= mple.
> Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1:
> [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
> [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72.
> [3] Augustine, ibid, 46.
> Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source i= n note 2
> instead of using "ibid",

It's not clear that's a problem. Indeed, we made a change to g= et
just this behavior. See

https= ://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703<= /a>
https://github.com= /jgm/pandoc#6813
https://github.com/citation-style-languag= e/documentation#121

According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when
the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same
source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation
"consists of a single cite referencing the same item."

In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is
satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation
is just "Augustine, The City of God." However, that in-text
citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the
whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing
the two items. So we treat the item as not a "single cite" i= n
this case.

> and (2) it repeats the author in note 3.

That's because (I assume) you've used an author-in-text citati= on
form, which always prints the author. Note the difference
between

blah blah [@augustine:city].

and

blah blah^[@augustine:city].

IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name
will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with
an author-in-text citation.

We need this behavior because you might say
"@augustine:city says blah" in the main text, and we'd w= ant
to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid.&q= uot;
This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transfor= med
to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pand= oc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d= /msgid/pandoc-discuss/557267e8-3f30-45aa-8b58-50fc6ba71531n%40googlegroups.= com.
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