From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/13562 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Pablo_Rodr=c3=adguez?= Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 19:55:18 +0200 Message-ID: <55E5E686.10900@web.de> References: <20150829140403.GA47273@MacBook-Air.local> <20150829142113.GA47586@MacBook-Air.local> <55E35446.2000009@web.de> <55E498FA.90500@web.de> <13393D201344655C5B10B6A5@[192.168.1.50]> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441130133 23036 80.91.229.3 (1 Sep 2015 17:55:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 17:55:33 +0000 (UTC) To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCD6NVO5UINBBCWNS6XQKGQE3UKRRHY-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Tue Sep 01 19:55:25 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-lb0-f184.google.com ([209.85.217.184]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWpmF-00036h-QK for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 19:55:23 +0200 Original-Received: by lbcao8 with SMTP id ao8sf2025257lbc.1 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:55:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=f36aw+xFuvOa6f7ssVp/2c0KdZtrCccFeNmLgm38SxQ=; b=fEFLCP1Pi1b8mRPMj38McF+b1+7sHOdXzqjPV40JG7r8C9SqZ597NlDhSHpzrklR0j KfghAC2XU1dzSsYAdG5V9WvF2TihIm4X/gSbEM0jAU70XaxMnLhRvvZnfAawwdpyhOlN 1o8oOV6ZfbylpjkUuw5OSO13mym50ypop8AHStUsEzAF0HMz9Vnuo+8XmAR11CaGPR+F QnL9XZ188xhi9SYGo28GaPpr/n6DvRtlqZ/bVXcmu86ooS4/XNp+admsT0Y0+kvXy2QS NiWurPPqel3FEkzbkuOafiI7pqbiW4VyC+4AwZc+MKe+gM3rY0wMrYf9Y2rDPBbMKfjY X-Received: by 10.180.21.147 with SMTP id v19mr20574wie.13.1441130123873; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.180.20.167 with SMTP id o7ls488259wie.2.gmail; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.57.44 with SMTP id f12mr2377853wjq.0.1441130122569; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de. [212.227.15.14]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r1si168139wiz.1.2015.09.01.10.55.22 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Sep 2015 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oinos-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org designates 212.227.15.14 as permitted sender) client-ip=212.227.15.14; Original-Received: from localhost.localdomain ([188.84.213.114]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LyxP6-1YbPkQ0REW-0148Jl for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 19:55:22 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 In-Reply-To: <13393D201344655C5B10B6A5@[192.168.1.50]> X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:nVBdFMVtiACAHfO5XyeSSYQJFbNNLD/jABfFDfaqsN9GSwoHd0A uyua259k5h/QZ/7xxBVKCmeAbTi4vU7C1C6Th1ooBxOCWiNClNxjIUIrKPpm3Ey8rcsjIkq YxvBM3edPrdmcK8Gx7gDWLiPBqT7Nh7p4dIHXSXEnlEQ85FA6HCmUMNfUChm+0TzugrJ+jA ZG7P2FLfTV3YqwbhjSEMg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:T4vi3/tkkmM=:9+gFoTpAG//n2VwM/4DlKq c7SvRp3LFHqrZgyRujyUwhMG6qQ+Qbbiwi6lVlVZkJpM5CENnY7E9P9abVRFuM6D2ZGD1aTfq RK6MOBVUADqOFcYi0TbXOMEO9wl7gdXNWSk1O/ftHWrDwrGIOZZi4biiL/tIDeki3TSLxK/9i 4MPT0Wl+l3UsxCxxK32VqODUAsivG6nW+DeuR5fyk11A9K2ygypCQvq5OAqBGf0bae0x05ZrH gOJg7tcSN4oERBZ6RTiolplpnHHPNjMtiHjDOga86XQMFxfh6knPGDSaLH2PaJj/KcwkMDSTF A6KbjZy7CYE7x5OJ3tXTZUy08I2hv+SZzqcAOwRCe/emE+MrhmP1Wnv7estiwlOogF7Vio64l 5yxWTej4LSRPSmMHpETED5G4hFNTvGtyc0dZpsCY2fvb3EU6AS2QNKn942iF3TKp++rl57rte lOk+NRH2zWt7y82NHgTfkZ0Flv1zqPhIkQw2wwqqv/xHe8Dahe/mACaKjg1EkzoFlNhUj8Dcs ujGNPJLj90wIPaitpxcYkcSJv+4rcSqg/nvS+RUrh+G9QMeOp2VcV6XN2Trsz06rPVwAF6TFL Ao61df0Fmg5yNM1c/cWLvnHxeLXXQvVSrajgdsaOF2+yMGCHZb/ZvhyEj+kITNxzwpkaVPOSo HFW99kEgUeCom4hVQ6USWuV3IErY24pL0KnfU0E+UYBHqwJnQ/gUbsbZzMkjpl6pVtZ9NwoFy m0aOyI/SEtXTtaAy3AfTHoojKXjoZ1COcDk3fg== X-Original-Sender: oinos-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oinos-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org designates 212.227.15.14 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=oinos-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:13562 Archived-At: On 08/31/2015 09:29 PM, Daniel Staal wrote: > --As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodr=C3=ADguez is alleged= to=20 > have said: >=20 >> On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote: >>> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for >>> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that >>> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are >>> orthogonal. >> >> Many thanks for your reply, BPJ. >> >> Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I >> was writing a manual in Spanish, but I=E2=80=99m afraid Markdown is too >> complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging. >> >> Probably I=E2=80=99m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word >> proccessing programs for average users. >=20 > Probably true. There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but= =20 > pandoc isn't an editor. It's a converter. The editors give you a nice= =20 > WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts to= =20 > common markup. Many thanks for your reply, Daniel. The problem with visual editors is that users many not know what they are actually doing. In that case, I think there is no gain in using pandoc. >>> In principle we could use any markup to signal "the >>> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independen= t >>> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!= ) >>> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div >>> solution is a good one, semantically speaking. >> >> I didn=E2=80=99t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speak= ing. >> >> My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people. >> Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement >> bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user. >=20 > Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs. Headers don't= =20 > create new sections. (Well, there is an option to make them create such,= =20 > but semantically and under normal use I've often seen headers within a=20 > section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text.) They= =20 > often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always. It may be my own approach to sections and their titles. Being able to wrap a section with title and contents into a division is essential to format chapters (or other sections) such as copyright, dedication, epigraph and colophon pages as different from other chapters. >> Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should >> be an easy task. >=20 > Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent. ;) This 'visible' marker= =20 > (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text= =20 > instead. Depending on what the text was, basically. Which will eventual= ly=20 > surprise someone. >=20 > (And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers=20 > automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the markup= .) My comments don=E2=80=99t make sense now, because the implemented solution allows to add text both before and after the bibliography. I hadn=E2=80=99t thought of that possibility. My comment now is to avoid using XML syntax, since it is harder for newcomers. >> The problem I see with Markdown (and I=E2=80=99m afraid CommonMark doesn= =E2=80=99t >> solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people. >> >> The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines. >> Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with >> titles? >=20 > I honestly think you're over-thinking this. It may be. My fundamental mistake may be be trying to make sense of Markdown as lightweight markup. > Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text. *Don't* try to= =20 > explain them in terms of paragraphs. Simply say that a titles are a sing= le=20 > line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title. It was only a minor issue. But do you really think that there is a need to limit titles to a single line? In other words, does this exception make sense? I=E2=80=99m not trying to change it (mainly because of backwards compatibil= ity), but I don=E2=80=99t see any reason to handle titles as block elements in a different way from paragraphs (in regard to this rule). Pablo --=20 http://www.ousia.tk --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. 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