From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/13574 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: BP Jonsson Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 12:35:45 +0200 Message-ID: <55E6D101.5060205@gmail.com> References: <20150829140403.GA47273@MacBook-Air.local> <20150829142113.GA47586@MacBook-Air.local> <55E35446.2000009@web.de> <55E498FA.90500@web.de> <13393D201344655C5B10B6A5@192.168.1.50> <55E5E7CD.7060000@web.de> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441190155 12938 80.91.229.3 (2 Sep 2015 10:35:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:35:55 +0000 (UTC) To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCWMVYEK54FRBA5CTOXQKGQE6QBJEYQ-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Wed Sep 02 12:35:48 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-lb0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZX5ON-0000Bt-8r for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:35:47 +0200 Original-Received: by lbcao8 with SMTP id ao8sf1961119lbc.1 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=sender:from:subject:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=9PqcYczrefmTX+wTBclTHCbiq45+kdwbaCebJHcyzTc=; b=XqR0fzvSIQnRybgwG6P9cth0fAVd93hOrJwgPlrDSNn/mLBnkf5GFfGIXfwxXaJXn4 uLFO96AP1GTKEheUMUgiKVvgzGWe6CghxAhGlkr9ea/QcolNthd/Bek6iBvciP4HynmB WCIBj59DkKWyG96NPPmoLJpU/mlCN7c1QVOTjmtDxiECOlQ9wO4TnqDZV0vy0iY0o3/L clKtrffOfp545qdcs47r3FoHSxxdmgkmg1xlkz4NGHxOy3WrSpD4mkMTStWf3VoZ9mLx /w1xJVA2y+avUyU5KhcwZr8lE4aW1pTT6gJJ+b5fjNlg/+lIjvUWxBe6GmYab4m3/rAo X-Received: by 10.152.7.67 with SMTP id h3mr143068laa.38.1441190148266; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.152.10.74 with SMTP id g10ls58848lab.92.gmail; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.28.100 with SMTP id a4mr9007217lah.4.1441190147497; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com (mail-wi0-x22a.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gt6si131874wib.1.2015.09.02.03.35.47 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a; Original-Received: by mail-wi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id fx3so14013538wic.0 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.81.4 with SMTP id v4mr3137574wix.71.1441190147094; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.252] ([178.249.150.249]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id eu10sm454840wib.21.2015.09.02.03.35.46 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 02 Sep 2015 03:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 In-Reply-To: <55E5E7CD.7060000-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:13574 Archived-At: Den 2015-09-01 kl. 20:00, skrev Pablo Rodr=C3=ADguez: > On 09/01/2015 09:18 AM, BP Jonsson wrote: >> @Pablo In my experience there are people who are comfortable with >> WYSIWYG and people who are not. The latter grasp markdown immediately, >> while the former are as annoyed by markup as the latter are by WYSIWYG. > > Many thanks for your reply, BP. > > My scenario is different: I want a common source to generate ePub and > PDF files. The source would be common to me and the author of the text. It is certainly the case for me too, some of the time: documents=20 which should work both as PDF and HTML, but I use pandoc also when=20 I only target PDF or doc(x)/odt. > > In my experience, people understand lighthweight far better than XML mark= up. Certainly. It is far easier to read, and I do think that it is=20 easier to grasp the difference between different elements. In *ML=20 all markup looks the same, which doesn't help to see the big picture. > > And even ignoring that, if Markdown is lightweight markup, it should > avoid any XML syntax by definition. Agreed, but I will rather have generic containers in their present=20 form rather than not at all! FWIW I started working on a filter=20 which lets you overload link markup for spans. It looks for=20 'links' having an 'url' that is a period followed by ASCII=20 letters, digits and underscores likethe current class markup and=20 converts that into a span. You can also specify further=20 attributes or raw markup for spans -- including real spans -- with=20 a given class, or inject raw markup for any format. I'm swamped in work ATM but will finish it as and when I'm not. Den 2015-09-01 kl. 19:55, skrev Pablo Rodr=C3=ADguez: > On 08/31/2015 09:29 PM, Daniel Staal wrote: >> >--As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodr=C3=ADguez is=20 alleged to >> >have said: >> > >>> >>On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote: >>>> >>>While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML=20 syntax for >>>> >>>divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to=20 confuse that >>>> >>>issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or=20 spans, which are >>>> >>>orthogonal. >>> >> >>> >>Many thanks for your reply, BPJ. >>> >> >>> >>Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown)=20 to anyone. I >>> >>was writing a manual in Spanish, but I=E2=80=99m afraid Markdown is = too >>> >>complicated to explain to people with no background in text=20 tagging. >>> >> >>> >>Probably I=E2=80=99m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace wo= rd >>> >>proccessing programs for average users. >> > >> >Probably true. There are Markdown editors that aim for that=20 market, but >> >pandoc isn't an editor. It's a converter. The editors give=20 you a nice >> >WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy=20 shortcuts to >> >common markup. > Many thanks for your reply, Daniel. > > The problem with visual editors is that users many not know=20 what they > are actually doing. > > In that case, I think there is no gain in using pandoc. > I think there is. I have converted (no pun intended!) at least one=20 of my authors to Markdown/pandoc, and his documents have become=20 much easier to work with not only because they're Markdown when I=20 get them. WYSIWYG word processors promote non-semantic markup[^1]). Consider=20 how most WP users indicate a heading: they highlight the text of a=20 paragraph and make it 18pt bold rather than applying the named=20 styles which the WP usually provides. Even so the XHTML exported by LibreOffice (I won't even consider=20 MS products!) is stupid evil and wrong: all styles, both automatic=20 and named are converted into so many `

` and `` elements=20 with CSS styles applied to classes named either automatically=20 random, or after the named styles with an absolutely stupid=20 conversion scheme where spaces become `_20_` because SPACE is at=20 code/char point `\x20`! I've even had to write my own program to=20 clean up that mess as automatically as possible[^2]. In a way generic HTML containers (span and div) were a leap=20 backwards because they made possible almost entirely unsemantic=20 HTML, worse than what we had when people used i and b rather than=20 em and strong (that conversion is a no-brainer compared to what I=20 need to do with the LO XHTML, which is technically compliant but=20 junk all the same! With Markdown anyone uses semantic markup even if they are not=20 aware of doing so, and with Pandoc the markup of the converted=20 *ML/*TeX/whatever becomes equally semantic. Admittedly authors not only make human editors' lives difficult,=20 but also possible, but getting people to effortlessly apply=20 semantic markup[^3] would make the lives of editors and teachers=20 much easier, and save a lot of other resources as well. Den 2015-09-01 kl. 21:31, skrev Daniel Staal: > Well, first off, they aren't really titles. They are *headings.* I think we have a translation issue here. 'Heading' is derived=20 from Latin _titulus_ in Romance languages. /bpj [^1]: Somewhere in there there is markup in one form or another,=20 nowadays usually XML, which looks absolutely horrible if you=20 unpack those masqueraded zip archives and look at it! [^2]: https://github.com/bpj/change-html-attrs [^3]: That *could* certainly be done in a 'WYSIWYG' WP if the=20 size- and font-changing commands were hidden away three menus deep=20 and the toolbars contained buttons for ordinary/strong emphasis,=20 major/medium/minor heading, fixed-width, link and nothing more,=20 and a carriage return automatically inserting a skip! I've=20 actually considered creating a LibreOffice so customized as far as=20 possible for distribution to elementary level students. It=20 wouldn't surprise me if it already exists! --=20 This email was composed using Vim! --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/55E6D101.5060205%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.