From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/26797 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss" Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?Re:_Formatting_of_"ibid"_in_v2.11.x?= Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:37:22 +0100 Message-ID: <5fac3d7d.1c69fb81.8ceda.81c8SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@gmr-mx.google.com> References: <557267e8-3f30-45aa-8b58-50fc6ba71531n@googlegroups.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--_com.samsung.android.email_1880453396309340" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31891"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDP3LCWBYEJBB7X2WD6QKGQEYS2S3GQ-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Wed Nov 11 20:37:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-wr1-f62.google.com ([209.85.221.62]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kcvw1-0008A7-Nn for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; 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[2001:67c:2050::465:201]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z83si410928wmc.3.2020.11.11.11.37.33 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:37:33 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org designates 2001:67c:2050::465:201 as permitted sender) client-ip=2001:67c:2050::465:201; Original-Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:2:0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-201.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CWZkj1VR6zQlL9; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:37:33 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Original-Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241]) by spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.122]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id AvHYlAg5UGik; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:37:26 +0100 (CET) SavedFromEmail: denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <557267e8-3f30-45aa-8b58-50fc6ba71531n-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Importance: normal X-Rspamd-Score: -1.28 / 15.00 / 15.00 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: D2948171E X-Rspamd-UID: d6d3a6 X-Original-Sender: denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=NySR9KRx; dkim=pass header.i=@mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=CELcruS4; spf=pass (google.com: domain of denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org designates 2001:67c:2050::465:201 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=mailbox.org X-Original-From: Denis Maier Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:26797 Archived-At: ----_com.samsung.android.email_1880453396309340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know if that works in that case, but using a minus before the @ usual= ly suppresses the author.I agree with you that it would be favourable to su= ppress the author here automatically. Currently that is not officially poss= ible with CSL. -------- Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht --------Von: Joshua Datum: 11.11.20 20:02 (GMT+01:00) An: pandoc-discuss Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x Thanks fo= r such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time, but I ha= d no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here.After c= onsulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the times = and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the second is= sue, though. Suppose I type:Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compa= re to the competing claim in @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]This then renders:[= 1] Augustine, City of God, 72.[2] Compare to the rather different claim in = Augustine, ibid, 46.Whereas the behavior I intend:[1] Augustine, City of Go= d, 72.[2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.This is the beh= avior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not understand the direc= tives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or maybe I simply cannot.M= any thanks once again,JoshuaOn Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM = UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:Joshua writes: > (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in > footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm > noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate threa= d.) > > There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using > chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example. > Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1: > [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*. > [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72. > [3] Augustine, ibid, 46. > Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in note = 2 > instead of using "ibid", It's not clear that's a problem. Indeed, we made a change to get just this behavior. See https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e86= 7703 https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813 https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121 According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation "consists of a single cite referencing the same item." In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation is just "Augustine, The City of God." However, that in-text citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing the two items. So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in this case. > and (2) it repeats the author in note 3. That's because (I assume) you've used an author-in-text citation form, which always prints the author. Note the difference between blah blah [@augustine:city]. and blah blah^[@augustine:city]. IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with an author-in-text citation. We need this behavior because you might say "@augustine:city says blah" in the main text, and we'd want to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid." This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/557267e8-3f30-45aa-8b58-50fc6ba71531n%40googlegroups.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/5fac3d7d.1c69fb81.8ceda.81c8SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING%40gmr-mx.go= ogle.com. ----_com.samsung.android.email_1880453396309340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't know if that wo= rks in that case, but using a minus before the @ usually suppresses the aut= hor.

I agree with you th= at it would be favourable to suppress the author here automatically. Curren= tly that is not officially possible with CSL.


-------- Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Joshua <joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Datum: 11.11.20 20= :02 (GMT+01:00)
An: pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss@googlegro= ups.com>
Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x
<= div>
Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've love= d pandoc for a long time, but I had no idea the support was this good. You = have a superb project here.

After consulting the s= tyle guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the times and I am not. I= 'm still a bit confused about your response to the second issue, though. Su= ppose I type:
Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing = claim in @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]

This then renders:
=
[1] A= ugustine, City of God, 72.
= [2] Compare to the rather d= ifferent claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.

<= /div>
Whereas the behavior I intend:
[1] Augustine, City of God, = 72.
[2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid,= 46.

This is the be= havior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not understand the dire= ctives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or maybe I simply cannot.=

Many thanks once again,
Joshua
<= /div>
= On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:=
Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org&g= t; writes:

> (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in
> footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'= m
> noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separat= e thread.)
>
> There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using
> chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an exa= mple.
> Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1:
> [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
> [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72.
> [3] Augustine, ibid, 46.
> Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source i= n note 2
> instead of using "ibid",

It's not clear that's a problem. Indeed, we made a change to get
just this behavior. See

https://github.com/jgm/= citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813<= /a>
https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#12= 1

According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when
the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same
source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation
"consists of a single cite referencing the same item."

In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is
satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation
is just "Augustine, The City of God." However, that in-text
citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the
whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing
the two items. So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in
this case.

> and (2) it repeats the author in note 3.

That's because (I assume) you've used an author-in-text citation
form, which always prints the author. Note the difference
between

blah blah [@augustine:city].

and

blah blah^[@augustine:city].

IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name
will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with
an author-in-text citation.

We need this behavior because you might say
"@augustine:city says blah" in the main text, and we'd want
to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid."
This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed
to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pand= oc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.c= om/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/557267e8-3f30-45aa-8b58-50fc6ba71531n%40googlegro= ups.com.

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