From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/24686 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Kolen Cheung Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Proposed new HTML5 feature: lazy loading images (#6197) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <81771c0d-dc1c-48bb-ba49-6f8e28b0e47b@googlegroups.com> References: <8cc5d71b-168a-4597-8d75-5a66723c2d82@googlegroups.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_620_1942840545.1584744285197" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="100889"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCS252WXTEIBBXUO2XZQKGQENLQMB5Y-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Fri Mar 20 23:44:50 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-oi1-f190.google.com ([209.85.167.190]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jFQNl-000Q9P-55 for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:44:49 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-f190.google.com with SMTP id f71sf5218467oib.18 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:44:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=0lVed9XpEon1SI6y3ZU7L7gRygo2XmvtgimyJKbAt1o=; b=pGXtMQcNA+RfeiK4tvuNE/Z2zRce26NWmq7uELM0U/zVOx0EnaMLamGDcNGLFt/cwQ Km+O//5xOKhtxkMbL2Hqnm6f6qlIteGlsR3DihPiNa/2obERoMRw+WQVCnckoREZM0zn /TDZPZbBOpVdCu70eccXUCXwmtmmdPWwbZWJV4JXmKMXwIa+Ju/RwUTwEdSIu2yE2vfK Px+pq+qNyGPYdruPdv0FOEFg89VZBemZvh1D6PRlVH9OBg5cvD7QxVQx7FoYi52MxvC1 GOL6SToK0URj9MRdpDBIfjUCO3boQA3Qt429sOVKKRjS+Dp9ttLapG1YLmP2o1//nvK9 Ecjw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=0lVed9XpEon1SI6y3ZU7L7gRygo2XmvtgimyJKbAt1o=; b=WImCscgEHtmPN05auUfRXsmqVlI7wxWu5hUHxvYkBC4XwnD4qEaanRQuHsDIOHGdbt CZkL28v2QqKX55hXLOtHqQbPCdVv4wZQS4D8LtM+KYnTGIadvBw7lr/UsZSjxcFIhzjV HXhjNvmP1LqOg/wkRHzJT/H08d8LfiD9nJ+OC+FLCeUK68PPKU3C9mgz3EsufhFyozVc 4tQRQwBnLWzoAOo1IOfkzyBjdPZ7qxTzQArnkfjl8pDaRKg8eQAxvb/DrEdenZGdQLd2 N+lqzjigeyHH/crYurI9wP1bD8q0csFa2CD8CrRJ9QK/ZyenM9ZkoMVFUmkL7rTdjf36 eiyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=0lVed9XpEon1SI6y3ZU7L7gRygo2XmvtgimyJKbAt1o=; b=UZTJJ4yVBiw+AYQmF+NJthywTvTlc0X8QUEZDk5Px3Fhu50U9jhLL95DwgXDnAaOAV tH86YtTF0KvtXwFlHyHcpmJVS6dgLrCsYreUfZl3Eqi0NorB57QwCNZQnP/BT8D1/YHf Ky1i4tU2ZkgfgdgrYzW/5G6QEmMk3GjmEYoTFure1MRRBw9rhGcoycboWMY+qzpy0THL CZE37awHGuZPmPCsyBwSCEA1BD5CYkf7JNlsJFP3xUNBqPKmYzP0heyargs474fQwFx0 P9cMiWkWsBAjtGOwC88DZn5i5/zmdFtiDelfFV+wEQvTyOZWhyuSGgPU6q7fHqxZsbXy o1xg== Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3BTG1vlay03ec0yDazg+UFuv0DAd6UZ6olHe80PU0ERmbd+uvm OYITKyO1dXe7+dt368LeUkI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuK1/a4/eq94/cdPAP56WFALr9G3RM/YXfDCkEFNiRN16k09djCOO3RsnMVQ02ED8Jh2IkfMg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:4025:: with SMTP id i5mr9262225ots.203.1584744288105; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:44:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 2002:aca:474a:: with SMTP id u71ls2834172oia.0.gmail; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:1c13:: with SMTP id c19mr8896710oic.47.1584744285741; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:44:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: christian.kolen-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:24686 Archived-At: ------=_Part_620_1942840545.1584744285197 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_621_1754606417.1584744285197" ------=_Part_621_1754606417.1584744285197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 3:35:55 PM UTC-7, Gwern Branwen wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:13 PM Kolen Cheung > wrote: > > You can complain all you want about Safari, but it is still a major > browser. And personally I will quit the website I was browsing that breaks > on Safari, unless it is like some banking website that I have to rely on. > > Unless you have some reason to think that it breaks on Safari despite > no mention of that anywhere and my testing and standard browser > behavior, I am not sure why you keep going on about Safari. > > You said > Man, when does Safari support anything in a timely fashion? It's the worst of the major browsers. > > Another example question is how about `wkhtmltopdf` PDF output in > pandoc. It may not breaks. But you didn't mention it and we didn't tested > it. So it is another potential thing to test first. > > If you use wkhtmltopdf enough that it is a concern, it would > presumably be the work of an instant for you to check using the > demo... I installed the latest wkhtmltopdf to check, tested /Faces > with wkhtmltopdf 0.12.5 and it appears to work just fine: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/sac9jeq2smmh4bl/2020-03-20-wkhtmltopdf-gwern.net-faces-lazyloadtest.pdf > (Parts of my CSS aren't rendered perfectly, unsurprisingly, but the > images themselves look fine.) > > It is not my concern, but the communities'. You need to get this in order to push for any feature that is affecting a huge community, and arguably many communities (say including Rmarkdown and Jupyter Notebook.) > > About the ePub3: does it really make sense to have lazy load images > there even if ePub3 readers support it or fall back silently? > > The question there is whether we need to further complicate the HTML5 > or EPUB3 code by specially disabling the lazy loading code just for > Markdown->HTML5->EPUB3. My point is that as far as can easily be told, > it should be completely harmless and therefore we don't need to > special-case the EPUB3. > > *should. But did you test it? Again the point is making it default will affects a lot of people, many communities. "Should" is not enough. (May be it is, because pandoc has been making unpredicted breaking changes to others as well. Often they are not foreseen though.) Again, it is not my or your decision. Your job is to convince people it is ok. And my comment is that you're not good at your job. I think my suggestion that takes a pragmatic approach (to make it an option first) is helping you to move this feature forward. Fine if you don't like it. But I think your defensive approach is not helping to make this moving forward. Just my 2 cents. Leaving this conservation as I think I know enough and that's all I want to (and can) contribute to this issue. > -- > gwern > https://www.gwern.net > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/81771c0d-dc1c-48bb-ba49-6f8e28b0e47b%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_621_1754606417.1584744285197 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 3:35:55 PM UTC-7, Gwe= rn Branwen wrote:
On Fri, Mar 2= 0, 2020 at 6:13 PM Kolen Cheung <christi...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> You can complain all you want about Safari, but it is still a majo= r browser. And personally I will quit the website I was browsing that break= s on Safari, unless it is like some banking website that I have to rely on.

Unless you have some reason to think that it breaks on Safari despite
no mention of that anywhere and my testing and standard browser
behavior, I am not sure why you keep going on about Safari.

You said

> Man, when does= Safari support anything in a timely fashion? It's the=C2=A0
worst= of the major browsers.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
> Another example question is how about `wkhtmltopdf` PD= F output in pandoc. It may not breaks. But you didn't mention it and we= didn't tested it. So it is another potential thing to test first.

If you use wkhtmltopdf enough that it is a concern, it would
presumably be the work of an instant for you to check using the
demo... I installed the latest wkhtmltopdf to check, tested /Faces
with wkhtmltopdf 0.12.5 and it appears to work just fine:
https:= //www.dropbox.com/s/sac9jeq2smmh4bl/2020-03-20-wkhtmltopdf-gwern.= net-faces-lazyloadtest.pdf
(Parts of my CSS aren't rendered perfectly, unsurprisingly, but the
images themselves look fine.)

It is not my concern, but the communities'. You n= eed to get this in order to push for any feature that is affecting a huge c= ommunity, and arguably many communities (say including Rmarkdown and Jupyte= r Notebook.)
=C2=A0
> About the ePub3: does it really make sense to have lazy load ima= ges there even if ePub3 readers support it or fall back silently?

The question there is whether we need to further complicate the HTML5
or EPUB3 code by specially disabling the lazy loading code just for
Markdown->HTML5->EPUB3. My point is that as far as can easily be = told,
it should be completely harmless and therefore we don't need to
special-case the EPUB3.


*should. But did you test it? Again th= e point is making it default will affects a lot of people, many communities= . "Should" is not enough. (May be it is, because pandoc has been = making unpredicted breaking changes to others as well. Often they are not f= oreseen though.)

Again, it is not my or your decis= ion. Your job is to convince people it is ok. And my comment is that you= 9;re not good at your job.

I think my suggestion t= hat takes a pragmatic approach (to make it an option first) is helping you = to move this feature forward. Fine if you don't like it. But I think yo= ur defensive approach is not helping to make this moving forward.

Just my 2 cents. Leaving this conservation as I think I kno= w enough and that's all I want to (and can) contribute to this issue.
--=20
gwern
https://www.gwern.net=

--
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/= msgid/pandoc-discuss/81771c0d-dc1c-48bb-ba49-6f8e28b0e47b%40googlegroups.co= m.
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