Sentences ending with `etc.'

Sentences ending with `etc.'

[Werner LEMBERG]

[your pandoc 2.0.1.1 binary for Linux]


Suppose the following MarkDown input:

---
This sentence is boring, too long, etc.  The next
sentence is as boring as the first.
---

Calling

  pandoc-2 -o pandoc-etc.tex pandoc-etc.md

converts this to

---
This sentence is boring, too long, etc.~The next sentence is as boring
as the first.
---

As you can see the `etc.' is followed by a protected space.  However,
in this very case there shouldn't be such a protected space since
`etc.' ends a sentence.

My question: How can I prevent that pandoc emits the `~' in this
situation?


    Werner

Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[Mikolaj Machowski]

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Escape dot in `etc.` with backslash.

Works for me.


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Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[John MacFarlane]

Good observation.

I've just removed etc. from the abbreviations list for
this reason.  I think it's usually used either at the
end of a sentence or with a following comma.


+++ Werner LEMBERG [Nov 09 17 17:04 ]:
>
>[your pandoc 2.0.1.1 binary for Linux]
>
>
>Suppose the following MarkDown input:
>
>---
>This sentence is boring, too long, etc.  The next
>sentence is as boring as the first.
>---
>
>Calling
>
>  pandoc-2 -o pandoc-etc.tex pandoc-etc.md
>
>converts this to
>
>---
>This sentence is boring, too long, etc.~The next sentence is as boring
>as the first.
>---
>
>As you can see the `etc.' is followed by a protected space.  However,
>in this very case there shouldn't be such a protected space since
>`etc.' ends a sentence.
>
>My question: How can I prevent that pandoc emits the `~' in this
>situation?
>
>
>    Werner

Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Good observation.

I found it by comparing LaTeX output from pandoc 1.17.1 with 2.0.1.1.

> I've just removed etc. from the abbreviations list for this reason.
> I think it's usually used either at the end of a sentence or with a
> following comma.

Thanks.  IIRC, `etc.' should always followed by a comma (if not at the
end of a sentence), similar to `e.g.' (which can never end a
sentence).


    Werner

Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Escape dot in `etc.` with backslash.
> 
> Works for me.

Thanks.  However, given that this behaviour was apparently introduced
in the pandoc 2 series and already changed in git, I simply wait for
the next version :-)


    Werner

Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[Mikolaj Machowski]

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BTW, in Polish typography shortcuts like etc. should be *preceded* by nbsp, not followed. Of course typography rules are different for different languages but I think also in English etc logically belongs to preceding words.

Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[John MacFarlane]

The reason we follow with nbsp is to prevent LaTeX
from treating the space as a "sentence ending space."

+++ Mikolaj Machowski [Nov 09 17 23:55 ]:
>BTW, in Polish typography shortcuts like etc. should be *preceded* by nbsp, not followed. Of course typography rules are different for different languages but I think also in English etc logically belongs to preceding words.
>
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Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[Melroch]

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I can easily think of examples where "etc." is neither at the end of a
sentence nor followed by a comma, like "Apples etc. should be put in the
basket." (Maybe that is not good English? The Swedish equivalent is
perfectly OK even though you perhaps would more likely use the likewise
abbreviated Swedish calques rather than the Latin "etc.")

It seems to me that you have two choices: either you do include "etc." in
your abbreviations file and escape the period when it is at the end of a
sentence, or you don't include it and escape the following space when it is
not at the end of a sentence, but either way those who don't agree with the
default can clone the default abbreviations file to
`~/.pandoc/abbreviations` and modify it.

Den 10 nov 2017 05:25 skrev "John MacFarlane" <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>:

> Good observation.
>
> I've just removed etc. from the abbreviations list for
> this reason.  I think it's usually used either at the
> end of a sentence or with a following comma.
>
>
> +++ Werner LEMBERG [Nov 09 17 17:04 ]:
>
>>
>> [your pandoc 2.0.1.1 binary for Linux]
>>
>>
>> Suppose the following MarkDown input:
>>
>> ---
>> This sentence is boring, too long, etc.  The next
>> sentence is as boring as the first.
>> ---
>>
>> Calling
>>
>>  pandoc-2 -o pandoc-etc.tex pandoc-etc.md
>>
>> converts this to
>>
>> ---
>> This sentence is boring, too long, etc.~The next sentence is as boring
>> as the first.
>> ---
>>
>> As you can see the `etc.' is followed by a protected space.  However,
>> in this very case there shouldn't be such a protected space since
>> `etc.' ends a sentence.
>>
>> My question: How can I prevent that pandoc emits the `~' in this
>> situation?
>>
>>
>>    Werner
>>
>
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>

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Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[John MacFarlane]

Yes, this is true (though that sounds pretty informal).
Still, I think etc. at the end of the sentence is going to be more
common, so we should make that case work more easily, and
require the escape in the other case.

+++ Melroch [Nov 11 17 09:40 ]:
>   I can easily think of examples where "etc." is neither at the end of a
>   sentence nor followed by a comma, like "Apples etc. should be put in
>   the basket." (Maybe that is not good English? The Swedish equivalent is
>   perfectly OK even though you perhaps would more likely use the likewise
>   abbreviated Swedish calques rather than the Latin "etc.")
>   It seems to me that you have two choices: either you do include "etc."
>   in your abbreviations file and escape the period when it is at the end
>   of a sentence, or you don't include it and escape the following space
>   when it is not at the end of a sentence, but either way those who don't
>   agree with the default can clone the default abbreviations file to
>   `~/.pandoc/abbreviations` and modify it.
>
>   Den 10 nov 2017 05:25 skrev "John MacFarlane" <[1]jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>:
>
>     Good observation.
>     I've just removed etc. from the abbreviations list for
>     this reason.  I think it's usually used either at the
>     end of a sentence or with a following comma.
>     +++ Werner LEMBERG [Nov 09 17 17:04 ]:
>
>     [your pandoc 2.0.1.1 binary for Linux]
>     Suppose the following MarkDown input:
>     ---
>     This sentence is boring, too long, etc.  The next
>     sentence is as boring as the first.
>     ---
>     Calling
>      pandoc-2 -o pandoc-etc.tex [2]pandoc-etc.md
>     converts this to
>     ---
>     This sentence is boring, too long, etc.~The next sentence is as
>     boring
>     as the first.
>     ---
>     As you can see the `etc.' is followed by a protected space.
>     However,
>     in this very case there shouldn't be such a protected space since
>     `etc.' ends a sentence.
>     My question: How can I prevent that pandoc emits the `~' in this
>     situation?
>        Werner
>
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>
>References
>
>   1. mailto:jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org
>   2. http://pandoc-etc.md/
>   3. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>   4. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>   5. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/20171110042455.GD70590-jF64zX8BO091tJRe0FUodcM6rOWSkUom@public.gmane.org
>   6. https://groups.google.com/d/optout
>   7. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>   8. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>   9. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhADCA80g_keqHxoYwdeNBVEvuN_eGBGbRpzFvFeM5RRPg-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>  10. https://groups.google.com/d/optout

Re: Sentences ending with `etc.'

[John Muccigrosso]

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On Saturday, November 11, 2017 at 3:40:41 AM UTC-5, BP wrote:
>
> I can easily think of examples where "etc." is neither at the end of a 
> sentence nor followed by a comma, like "Apples etc. should be put in the 
> basket." (Maybe that is not good English? The Swedish equivalent is 
> perfectly OK even though you perhaps would more likely use the likewise 
> abbreviated Swedish calques rather than the Latin "etc.")
>

Correct. It's not good English. :-) 

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