From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/25968 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lloyd R. Prentice" Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: general attributes and yaml metadata block + the future of Pandoc Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:23:08 -0400 Message-ID: <956E6AE2-1BD4-4E4B-BE51-42DD7FE51F4C@writersglen.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6D3CA8C7-1DAC-4556-AE7B-402F7D88AA0B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14461"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCOZ3TURZAFBBDWFQX5AKGQESAXJINA-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Sat Aug 22 20:23:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-il1-f183.google.com ([209.85.166.183]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1k9YAb-0003eA-VV for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; 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[66.111.4.29]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m13si263539ilf.5.2020.08.22.11.23.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lloyd-l7gIAb2iU4jcM+WK4BI3xw@public.gmane.org designates 66.111.4.29 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.111.4.29; Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236B25C00C8 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:23:09 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedruddugedguddviecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecuogfuuhhsphgvtghtffhomhgrihhnucdlgeelmd enucfjughrpegtgffhggfukfffvffosegrjehmrehhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfnfhlohih ugcutfdrucfrrhgvnhhtihgtvgdfuceolhhlohihugesfihrihhtvghrshhglhgvnhdrtg homheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepjeetteegvedufedtgfdttefffeffffejvedugeet ffdvvefggeetvedvhfehheehnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgohhoghhlvgdrtghomhenucfkph epjedurddujeegrdduudehrdejleenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgr mhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehllhhohiguseifrhhithgvrhhsghhlvghnrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Original-Received: from [192.168.1.171] (static-71-174-115-79.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [71.174.115.79]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D3526306005F for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:23:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: iPad Mail (17G68) X-Original-Sender: lloyd-l7gIAb2iU4jcM+WK4BI3xw@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@writersglen.com header.s=fm3 header.b=PXB9orOs; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=thbLbvPh; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lloyd-l7gIAb2iU4jcM+WK4BI3xw@public.gmane.org designates 66.111.4.29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lloyd-l7gIAb2iU4jcM+WK4BI3xw@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:25968 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail-6D3CA8C7-1DAC-4556-AE7B-402F7D88AA0B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This thread compels me to express several growing concerns that I have abou= t the future of Pandoc. To me, Pandoc stands side-by-side with my text editor and OS as my most ess= ential digital tools. I think of Pandoc as an operating system for print an= d digital communication. John MacFarlane=E2=80=99s far-seeing creativity an= d hard work toward making Pandoc what it is deserves profound gratitude fro= m the community. The Pandoc ecosystem, by the nature of the problems it sets out to address,= is complex and likely to become ever more so. The challenge is how to mana= ge that complexity so Pandoc can continue to effectively address the many d= iverse cases and edge cases we are likely to throw at it. Pandoc documentat= ion, excellent so far as it goes, reflects this complexity. Case in point, = I=E2=80=99ve spent hours scouring the web to find or understand how to dev= elop a PDF book template that fits my need. I do understand that that Pandoc has a modular architecture. Sadly, I don= =E2=80=99t understand it well enough since I=E2=80=99m not an haskell nor l= ua programmer. But here are the few vague thoughts that I have been mulling= over: =E2=80=94 As I see it, Pandoc is a pipeline of readers, interpreters, write= rs, and styling templates. Each stage in the pipeline is a set of distinct = functional components. Each component delivers value to a segment, some sma= ll and some sizable, of the larger Pandoc community. As a Pandoc user there= are many if not most of the components that I will never need to use nor c= are about. And I suspect this is true for every Pandoc user. =E2=80=94 Rather than thinking of Pandoc as a monolith, a Swiss Army Knife,= it might serve us better to think of Pandoc as a tool supplier =E2=80=94 t= he place we go to pick out precisely the set of tools that we need to plug = into our communication pipeline. Each tool deserves it=E2=80=99s own descri= ption of purpose, descriptive use cases, and documentation. Ideally, docume= ntation format would be standardized across components. =E2=80=94 This structure is similar to the complexity problem faced by the = developers of UNIX. Their solution was to urge development of simple single= -purpose tools with standardized IO so data can flow smoothly through the p= rocessing pipeline using the brilliant UNIX pipe operator. They then develo= ped man pages to document these tools. I=E2=80=99m guessing that John had something like this in mind when he thou= ght through the Pandoc architecture. But somehow, to me at least, it doesn= =E2=80=99t come across this way in the diverse Pandoc canon. This is partic= ularly evident at the styling stage.=20 =E2=80=94 All this leads me to say that we can=E2=80=99t expect John MacFar= lane to solve every problem and integrate every feature we might like to se= e. We need to step up as a community to help shoulder the challenging work = of organizing, documenting, and developing a dynamic Pandoc ecosystem that = meets our individual and collective needs.=20 As a first step, perhaps, we can discuss and agree by consensus on a standa= rd format for documentation and tutorials.=20 As a second step we then need to take on the hard work of documenting each = and every component in the system. Apologies for the length of this post, but I hope it provides constructive = food for thought. Lloyd Sent from my iPad >> On Aug 22, 2020, at 4:34 AM, ch_...-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org wrote: > =EF=BB=BFwhy aren't attributes supported in "normal" markdown? >=20 > John MacFarlane schrieb am Freitag, 21. August 2020 um 22:51:31 UTC+2: >>=20 >> You're doing it right -- but currently no format supports=20 >> both yaml metadata and attributes.=20 >>=20 >> When we add suppport for yaml metadata blocks to commonmark,=20 >> you'll be able to use that.=20 >>=20 >> Christian M=C3=BCller writes:=20 >>=20 >> > I would like to use attributes like the following=20 >> >=20 >> > *something*{.timing}=20 >> >=20 >> > which should render to=20 >> >=20 >> > something or alternatively > > class=3D"timing">something=20 >> >=20 >> > According to documentation I need the attributes extension. When I do = --from=3Dmarkdown+attributes=20 >> > I get=20 >> >=20 >> > The extension attributes is not supported for markdown=20 >> >=20 >> > When I try commonmark --from=3Dcommonmark+attributes instead it does w= ork.=20 >> > However, I also need the Yaml meta data block. --from=3Dcommonmark+att= ributes+yaml_metadata_block=20 >> > yields=20 >> >=20 >> > The extension yaml_metadata_block is not supported for commonmark=20 >> >=20 >> > Am I doing something wrong? I'd rather stay with markdown (it's an old= er=20 >> > document)=20 >> >=20 >> > (using the official pandoc build for windows)=20 >> >=20 >> > pandoc.exe 2.10.1=20 >> > Compiled with pandoc-types 1.21, texmath 0.12.0.2, skylighting 0.8.5= =20 >> >=20 >> > --=20 >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "pandoc-discuss" group.=20 >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org=20 >> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/m= sgid/pandoc-discuss/a0460a16-04eb-4ff8-8159-4a22138967b7o%40googlegroups.co= m. >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgi= d/pandoc-discuss/b88f4db2-e711-41b5-8223-87f90447753fn%40googlegroups.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/956E6AE2-1BD4-4E4B-BE51-42DD7FE51F4C%40writersglen.com. --Apple-Mail-6D3CA8C7-1DAC-4556-AE7B-402F7D88AA0B Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BFThis thread com= pels me to express several growing concerns that I have about the future of= Pandoc.

To me, Pandoc stands side-by-side with my text = editor and OS as my most essential digital tools. I think of Pandoc as an o= perating system for print and digital communication. John MacFarlane=E2=80= =99s far-seeing creativity and hard work toward making Pandoc what it is de= serves profound gratitude from the community.

The = Pandoc ecosystem, by the nature of the problems it sets out to address, is = complex and likely to become ever more so. The challenge is how to manage t= hat complexity so Pandoc can continue to effectively address the many diver= se cases and edge cases we are likely to throw at it. Pandoc documentation,= excellent so far as it goes, reflects this complexity. Case in point, &nbs= p;I=E2=80=99ve spent hours scouring the web to find or understand how to de= velop a PDF book template that fits my need.

I do = understand that that Pandoc has a modular architecture. Sadly, I don=E2=80= =99t understand it well enough since I=E2=80=99m not an haskell nor lua pro= grammer. But here are the few vague thoughts that I have been mulling over:=

=E2=80=94 As I see it, Pandoc is a pipeline of re= aders, interpreters, writers, and styling templates. Each stage in the pipe= line is a set of distinct functional components. Each component delivers va= lue to a segment, some small and some sizable, of the larger Pandoc communi= ty. As a Pandoc user there are many if not most of the components that I wi= ll never need to use nor care about. And I suspect this is true for every P= andoc user.

=E2=80=94 Rather than thinking of Pand= oc as a monolith, a Swiss Army Knife, it might serve us better to think of = Pandoc as a tool supplier =E2=80=94 the place we go to pick out precisely t= he set of tools that we need to plug into our communication pipeline. Each = tool deserves it=E2=80=99s own description of purpose, descriptive use case= s, and documentation. Ideally, documentation format would be standardized a= cross components.

=E2=80=94 This structure is simi= lar to the complexity problem faced by the developers of UNIX. Their soluti= on was to urge development of simple single-purpose tools with standardized= IO so data can flow smoothly through the processing pipeline using the bri= lliant UNIX pipe operator. They then developed man pages to document these = tools.

I=E2=80=99m guessing that John had somethin= g like this in mind when he thought through the Pandoc architecture. But so= mehow, to me at least, it doesn=E2=80=99t come across this way in the diver= se Pandoc canon. This is particularly evident at the styling stage. 

=E2=80=94 All this leads me to say that we can=E2= =80=99t expect John MacFarlane to solve every problem and integrate every f= eature we might like to see. We need to step up as a community to help shou= lder the challenging work of organizing, documenting, and developing a dyna= mic Pandoc ecosystem that meets our individual and collective needs. <= /div>

As a first step, perhaps, we can discuss and agree= by consensus on a standard format for documentation and tutorials. 

As a second step we then need to take on the hard w= ork of documenting each and every component in the system.

Apologies for the length of this post, but I hope it provides cons= tructive food for thought.

Lloyd

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 22, 2020, at 4:34 AM, ch_...-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org <ch_819-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org> = wrote:

=EF=BB=BFwhy aren't attributes supported in "normal" markdown?

John MacFarla= ne schrieb am Freitag, 21. August 2020 um 22:51:31 UTC+2:

You're doing it right -- but currently no format supports
both yaml metadata and attributes.

When we add suppport for yaml metadata blocks to commonmark,
you'll be able to use that.

Christian M=C3=BCller <ch_...-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org> writes:

> I would like to use attributes like the following
>
> *something*{.timing}
>
> which should render to
>
> <em class=3D"timing">something</em> or alternatively &= lt;span=20
> class=3D"timing"><em>something</em></span>
>
> According to documentation I need the attributes extension. When I= do --from=3Dmarkdown+attributes=20
> I get
>
> The extension attributes is not supported for markdown
>
> When I try commonmark --from=3Dcommonmark+attributes instead it do= es work.=20
> However, I also need the Yaml meta data block. --from=3Dcommonmark= +attributes+yaml_metadata_block=20
> yields
>
> The extension yaml_metadata_block is not supported for commonmark
>
> Am I doing something wrong? I'd rather stay with markdown (it's an= older=20
> document)
>
> (using the official pandoc build for windows)
>
> pandoc.exe 2.10.1
> Compiled with pandoc-types 1.21, texmath 0.12.0.2, skylighting 0.8= .5
>
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to pando= c-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a046= 0a16-04eb-4ff8-8159-4a22138967b7o%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pand= oc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
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