Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Andrew Dunning]

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It is possible in Word, Open/LibreOffice, LaTeX, etc. to have both 
footnotes and endnotes in a single document, and publishers request 
documents formatted this way for various purposes (e.g. standard notes plus 
a glossary; separate textual and source notes in a scholarly edition). 
Could this feature be considered for inclusion in Pandoc?

One could perhaps extend the syntax like this, assuming it wouldn't cause 
problems for people who italicize _with underscores_:

^[This is footnote.]
_[This is an endnote.]

This could also potentially meet the needs of some of those who in the past 
have requested the ability to have separate sidenotes/marginal notes:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pandoc-discuss/5LxvWF8SmFc/discussion
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pandoc-discuss/qYu5xJj-onU/discussion

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Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[BP Jonsson]

2014-06-27 21:51, Andrew Dunning skrev:
> It is possible in Word, Open/LibreOffice, LaTeX, etc. to have both
> footnotes and endnotes in a single document, and publishers
> request documents formatted this way for various purposes (e.g.
> standard notes plus a glossary; separate textual and source notes
> in a scholarly edition). Could this feature be considered for
> inclusion in Pandoc?
>
> One could perhaps extend the syntax like this, assuming it
> wouldn't cause problems for people who italicize _with underscores_:

But it will!

Underscore emphasis is very good when you have a lot of literal
asterisks, like e.g. comparative philologists who mark 
reconstructed and hypothetical words and forms.

>
> ^[This is footnote.]
> _[This is an endnote.]


Why not reference notes like this:

[^footnote]
[^^endnote]

?

> This could also potentially meet the needs of some of those who in the past have requested the ability to have separate sidenotes/marginal notes:

I'm afraid not.  Just as footnotes and endnotes fill different 
niches marginal notes fill yet other niches.

I agree that support for both/all three would be nice!

/bpj

Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Andrew Dunning]

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On Friday, June 27, 2014 6:07:39 PM UTC-4, BP Jonsson wrote:
>
> Underscore emphasis is very good when you have a lot of literal 
> asterisks, like e.g. comparative philologists who mark 
> reconstructed and hypothetical words and forms. 
>

Good point; I never use underscores myself, so I forget what sorts of 
sequences might occur. Your suggestion of repeating the character is an 
interesting idea. Personally, I still like the idea of simply using a 
different character; >[note] was previously suggested for marginal notes, 
and I believe that someone else suggested #[note]. For both of these, 
however, there is probably still some small chance of creating trouble if 
an inline note occurs at the beginning of a line.

 

> I'm afraid not.  Just as footnotes and endnotes fill different niches 
> marginal notes fill yet other niches. 


I meant that simply in terms of having a way to indicate a separate series 
of notes, which could then be rendered as marginal notes in the final 
version.

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Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Daniel Staal]

--As of June 27, 2014 7:30:21 PM -0700, Andrew Dunning is alleged to have 
said:

> Good point; I never use underscores myself, so I forget what sorts of
> sequences might occur. Your suggestion of repeating the character is an
> interesting idea. Personally, I still like the idea of simply using a
> different character; >[note] was previously suggested for marginal notes,
> and I believe that someone else suggested #[note]. For both of these,
> however, there is probably still some small chance of creating trouble if
> an inline note occurs at the beginning of a line.

--As for the rest, it is mine.

I'd lean towards 'notes always start with `[`', and then work from there:

[^ is footnote (most basic style).
[> is margin note (push to side).

Endnotes then become the odd one out, but there's no 'down caret'. A dagger 
mark would make sense (`†`, if it comes through), but it's a bit harder 
to type, and not part of standard ASCII.  An exclamation mark would give a 
decent 'point down' as well, but you have two codes that are mirror images 
that people will confuse.  (Image and endnote.)  Looking at standard 
typography, the easy to type 'note' marks are `*` and `|`.  I'd argue for 
the pipe, being easy to type and having some mental link to 'down', meaning 
endnotes might look like `[|id]`.

Just personal thoughts on the issue, since I like to think this stuff 
through.  ;)

Daniel T. Staal

(And I'm just noticing that inline notes invert the order of the first two 
characters...  Hmm.  I still like my mnemonics.  Perhaps 'starting with `^` 
means inline'?  And footnotes are the default.  So `^[^` is the same as 
`^[`, but you can also use `^[>` or `^[|`, for inline variants of those.)

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Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Jesse Rosenthal]

Hi,

Andrew Dunning <andunning-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> It is possible in Word, Open/LibreOffice, LaTeX, etc. to have both 
> footnotes and endnotes in a single document, and publishers request 
> documents formatted this way for various purposes (e.g. standard notes plus 
> a glossary; separate textual and source notes in a scholarly edition). 
> Could this feature be considered for inclusion in Pandoc?

I don't have too much opinion on the ASCII art (double carats seem fine,
I guess) but I did want to voice my support for having different note
types. Something like

~~~{.haskell}

data NoteType = Footnote | Endnote | Marginnote

data Inline = ...
            | Note NoteType [Block]
            ...
~~~

While working on the docx reader I came across some cases with, for
example, translations in footnotes and scholarly notes and citations in
endnotes. So the current practice of collapsing them all into one note
type ended up discarding some useful info.

Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Andrew Dunning]

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On Monday, June 30, 2014 9:40:14 AM UTC-4, Jesse Rosenthal wrote:
>
> I don't have too much opinion on the ASCII art (double carats seem fine, 
> I guess) but I did want to voice my support for having different note 
> types.


To me, the danger with going beyond footnotes and endnotes is deciding 
where to stop. Separate footnotes and endnotes are supported in a 
well-defined way by the major word processors. I would personally really 
like to have sidenotes as well, as they're almost always possible in some 
way (and someone argued in another discussion that they correspond nicely 
to <aside> in HTML), but I don't know if this is enough to justify their 
inclusion, given that their implementation varies. I seem to remember one 
publisher who asked that text appearing as marginal notes in the final 
version (used in this case to indicate the original pagination of a primary 
source being edited) would be placed in Word comments. (Of course, there is 
a proper way of encoding this in TEI and even EPUB.) But then one can also 
occasionally have notes in both the inner and outer margins (as 
implemented, for instance, in Classical Text Editor); and in critical 
editions and commentaries, it's possible to have three or more layers of 
notes that are keyed to a span of text and presented in an apparatus (see 
eledmac in LaTeX). Most of these uses are probably too specialized for 
Pandoc, but what criteria does one use?

I suppose this is all for our judicious philosopher-king to decide.

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Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Jesse Rosenthal]

Andrew Dunning <andunning-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> On Monday, June 30, 2014 9:40:14 AM UTC-4, Jesse Rosenthal wrote:
>>
>> I don't have too much opinion on the ASCII art (double carats seem fine, 
>> I guess) but I did want to voice my support for having different note 
>> types.
>
>
> To me, the danger with going beyond footnotes and endnotes is deciding 
> where to stop. 

Sure -- at a certain point, you'd just have to put a div around the
blocks in the note, and let a filter do the dirty work. After all,
you're probably not submitting your manuscript in pandoc markdown. I'd
say marginnotes isn't that important, compared with foot- and end-. It
seems, pulling numbers entirely out of the air, that having just one
would cover 90% of cases, having two would cover about 99.5%, and having
three would cover 99.9%. Not sure if that's a good reason for stopping
at one, two, or three.

Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Jonathan Clark]

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On Monday, 30 June 2014 22:09:01 UTC+1, Jesse Rosenthal wrote:
>
> Sure -- at a certain point, you'd just have to put a div around the 
> blocks in the note, and let a filter do the dirty work. After all, 
> you're probably not submitting your manuscript in pandoc markdown. I'd 
> say marginnotes isn't that important, compared with foot- and end-. It 
> seems, pulling numbers entirely out of the air, that having just one 
> would cover 90% of cases, having two would cover about 99.5%, and having 
> three would cover 99.9%. Not sure if that's a good reason for stopping 
> at one, two, or three. 
>

I suspect it would be more like 95% than 90%, but because of the nature of 
this list we're likely to be in the 5%. I'm normally in favour of 
increasing the expressive power of markdown, but this is a tricky one. For 
some people there might be a need to distinguish document endnotes from 
chapter endnotes. And then there's interaction with table footnotes, and 
the current MultiMarkdown inline footnote syntax to worry about.  So I 
doubt we could properly cover all these options within the limits of the 
available ASCII.

Perhaps it might be as useful to put some work into filters or 
pre-processors that parses an agreed coding for the 'footnote' markers, and 
turns them into the appropriate LaTeX/HTML/docx ...  Perhaps:

   - Fnnn = footnotes
   - Ennn = endnotes
   - Mnnn = margin notes (possibly with MInnn/MOnnn to indicate 
   inside/outside margin where that's important)
   - Cnnn = chapter notes

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Re: Footnotes plus endnotes in Markdown

[Andrew Dunning]

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As this discussion seems to have run its course, I have summarized it (with 
a few additional links) in a feature request at 
<https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/1425>. Hope that I haven't 
misrepresented anyone.

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 6:53:19 AM UTC-4, Jonathan Clark wrote:
>
> On Monday, 30 June 2014 22:09:01 UTC+1, Jesse Rosenthal wrote:
>>
>> Sure -- at a certain point, you'd just have to put a div around the 
>> blocks in the note, and let a filter do the dirty work. After all, 
>> you're probably not submitting your manuscript in pandoc markdown. I'd 
>> say marginnotes isn't that important, compared with foot- and end-. It 
>> seems, pulling numbers entirely out of the air, that having just one 
>> would cover 90% of cases, having two would cover about 99.5%, and having 
>> three would cover 99.9%. Not sure if that's a good reason for stopping 
>> at one, two, or three. 
>>
>
> I suspect it would be more like 95% than 90%, but because of the nature of 
> this list we're likely to be in the 5%. I'm normally in favour of 
> increasing the expressive power of markdown, but this is a tricky one. For 
> some people there might be a need to distinguish document endnotes from 
> chapter endnotes. And then there's interaction with table footnotes, and 
> the current MultiMarkdown inline footnote syntax to worry about.  So I 
> doubt we could properly cover all these options within the limits of the 
> available ASCII.
>
> Perhaps it might be as useful to put some work into filters or 
> pre-processors that parses an agreed coding for the 'footnote' markers, and 
> turns them into the appropriate LaTeX/HTML/docx ...  Perhaps:
>
>    - Fnnn = footnotes
>    - Ennn = endnotes
>    - Mnnn = margin notes (possibly with MInnn/MOnnn to indicate 
>    inside/outside margin where that's important)
>    - Cnnn = chapter notes
>
>

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