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[2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u5si1253298lfm.0.2020.01.19.00.08.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 19 Jan 2020 00:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sky.y.0079-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::429 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::429; Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id z7so26355858wrl.13 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 00:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:adf:f411:: with SMTP id g17mr11880674wro.89.1579421338662; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 00:08:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: sky.y.0079-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=p0kntlFG; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sky.y.0079-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::429 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sky.y.0079-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:24238 Archived-At: --000000000000d77cfb059c79af66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have started this thread but left it for a while. Sorry for my absence and pending work. I have two opinions. ## As graphic identity Again, I wrote why I need a Pandoc logo in the first post: > The logo strongly represent the existence of Pandoc and briefly show what it is. > This will be useful when we make a presentation. > To expand Pandoc to the world, the logo will be important. For example, the text 'Pandoc' is perfect as symbolic (in string) identity because it is sufficiently identical from other products and says what it is. (pan-document -> universal document converter) After many proposals (thanks a lot!), I confirmed the text `Pandoc` is still strong as a pseudo-logo symbol in this point. The (reverse) pilcrow symbol might weaken the identity because it could cause missread: "I'm a paragraph." I think it is difficult to conclude this graphic identity issue. I will propose another point: practical use. ## In practical use I haven't written enough why I need in practical point. I sometimes feel inconvenient and need a graphic Pandoc logo when: - finding our user's guide page from many browser tabs (currently its favicon is the browser default) - making a diagram to explain my publishing workflow: pandoc -> (rst) -> Sphinx -> Web site - writing a book that explains Pandoc (I want to use official logo in its cover page!) 'To expand Pandoc to the world' in the first quote implies this usage above actually but I have not explained much. Then in practical point the *official* logo spec will be: 1. can be square and make favicon for pandoc.org (at least 32=C3=9732 px fo= r modern browsers) 2. can be downloaded in pdf (or svg) and png (or jpg) for general graphic design and diagrams 3. [optional] fit for the current website: pandoc.org (not need to an image= ) 4. seem to be graphically identical in the logo of spec 1-3 For example the rasterize version of the sans serif text 'P' in 32=C3=9732 satisfies the spec 1. pdf/png version of the current top page header text 'Pandoc' satisfies the spec 2. Spec 3 is not necessary. Spec 4 is obviously satisfied. This will be minimal set of logo that satisfies the spec. Alexis' one as jgm mentioned will be satisfies the spec 1-4 and we can filter other existing ideas with the spec. Thank you for discussion and give cool ideas. Regards, Yuki F 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=97=A5) 8:53 John MacFarlane : > > I'm really not sure what to say: people here seem to want > a logo much more than I do, so I feel a lot of pressure. > But since I don't think we NEED a logo, I'm not going to go > to go for one unless it really looks right. > > I actually think this one by Alexis is pretty nice, though > now it has been accused of amateurism. Well, I'm not a graphic > designer, so I wouldn't know. But I like it better than the other > proposals of reverse pilcrows in boxes. > > I do think that it makes sense, if we have a logo, to have > the canonical version be a particular vector image, and not > just, say, a reverse pilcrow typeset any old way. That's not a > logo, it's just a symbol. > > > Alexis BRENON writes: > > > I agree that it doesn't have to be a real/specific font. > > In the beginning, the idea was to be able to insert the logo without > > relying on a "premade" image. > > But as we can see, using the chosen pilcrow as a letter inside a word > > doesn't feel well. > > Moreover, as it is a manually reversed pilcrow, it can't be easily adde= d > to > > all formats. > > In my opinion, designing a "pictural" logo would let us more room to > make a > > good one, and would better fit the use cases (like the one showcased by > > @allefeld). > > > > From this idea, I made a variant of the Vollkorn pilcrow taking some > ideas > > from the whole conversation. > > John seems to like to see the "pi" letter as well as a "D", and most of > us > > agree on using something looking like a "P". > > So I separated the bowl from the vertical lines bringing some advantage= s: > > * The "pi" and the "D" are more visible (I can still do more works on t= he > > upper junction to make the "pi" more evident -- adding some curve simil= ar > > to the left one, making some offset overlap to highlight the separation= , > > etc.) > > * We keep a "P" shape related to the first letter of "Pandoc" > > * It is not a "simple" pilcrow anymore, so decrease the risk of confusi= on > > from the users. > > > > Using a box around is a good idea making it stands as "I am a logo". > > However, a simple square or diamond doesn't bring much meaning. > > I used an ISO A4 page symbol which was often used in the previous logo > > propositions. > > One more time, some more work can be done here, like using a letter-siz= ed > > page (which would make it more squarish). > > > > [image: logo_512.png] > > > > What do you think about this compromised: starting from a well-designed > > pilcrow and customizing it to make it looks like a logo. > > > > Kind. > > > > Le mar. 14 janv. 2020 =C3=A0 21:46, BPJ a =C3=A9cri= t : > > > >> Does it necessarily have to be a specific font? I doubt people will ca= re > >> about such details as long as the general look is the expected one, th= e > >> pilcrow, a box (the idea of a square rotated 45 degrees, i.e. a lozeng= e, > >> seems a good one to me BTW) and the expected general color in a color > >> document. OTOH if the font is the "right" one but other details are > wrong, > >> like a non-reversed pilcrow, a circle instead of a box or the wrong > color > >> the "right" font doesn't help. Most people who aren't font nerds (I > used > >> to be one when I was younger actually) won't notice any font differenc= es > >> less gross than filled vs. not filled, w/o a "leg" or sans vs. serif. > >> > >> > >> Den tors 9 jan. 2020 18:52allefeld skrev: > >> > >>> I did have the concern expressed above that the reversed Pilcrow > >>>> in a box e.g. in an editor menu looks like it should create a new > >>>> paragraph, > >>> > >>> > >>> I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The Pilcrow is familiar as an > >>> end-of-paragraph symbol, but I have never seen an editor that uses it > to > >>> stand for "create paragraph". > >>> > >>> Apparently there is a Pilcrow button in MS Word, but that stands for > >>> "show hidden formatting". > >>> > >>> For my own package, I think that the documentation > >>> https://github.com/allefeld/atom-pandoc-pdf#toolbar-buttons > >>> should make it completely clear. > >>> > >>> And once the symbol is used on the Pandoc website, users will > >>> automatically start associating it with Pandoc. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> and isn't obviously recognizable as a logo. > >>>> > >>> > >>> A properly designed logo would certainly be nice. A while ago there > was a > >>> comment from a designer on the repo offering to design a logo. I left= a > >>> comment, maybe he chimes in. > >>> > >>> But I would propose that for the moment we just settle on a font, and > >>> leave possible further logo design for the future. > >>> > >>> And that would mean that you, John, have to decide which font it is > >>> supposed to be. :) > >>> > >>> C > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "pandoc-discuss" group. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d > an > >>> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > >>> To view this discussion on the web visit > >>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/921cd6a2-2d51-4c82-bf29-= 97627318519f%40googlegroups.com > >>> < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/921cd6a2-2d51-4c82-bf29-= 97627318519f%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter > > > >>> . > >>> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > >> Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > >> > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pandoc-discuss/1bKIuyBnWaQ/unsubscribe. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > >> pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > >> To view this discussion on the web visit > >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhARUsq4GnQAuykH4tX= jHAaRe%3DYB2EKEwnshJZ9496K-9Q%40mail.gmail.com > >> < > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhARUsq4GnQAuykH4tX= jHAaRe%3DYB2EKEwnshJZ9496K-9Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sourc= e=3Dfooter > > > >> . > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAJPB9o0-2RT%3DKd733Xj2v= qDTgGoozqX%2B7V_SCd%3DLD%3D6EbuGChg%40mail.gmail.com > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pandoc-discuss/1bKIuyBnWaQ/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m24kwsxqxy.fsf%40johnmac= farlane.net > . > --=20 =E8=97=A4=E5=8E=9F =E7=94=B1=E6=9D=A5 (Yuki Fujiwara) sky.y.0079-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CAA4xQMmj9pc3RKC473_Hq_%2BgSA6DJNkQS2z%2B%2BOUE6Sp4L6Bv5w%40= mail.gmail.com. --000000000000d77cfb059c79af66 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have started this thread but left it for a while. = Sorry for my absence and pending work.=C2=A0

I have two opinions.

=
## As graphic identity

<= div dir=3D"auto">Again, I wrote why I need a Pandoc logo in the first post:=

> The logo strongly = represent the existence of Pandoc and briefly show what it is.=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"auto">> This will be useful when we make a presentation.=C2= =A0
> To expand Pandoc to the world, the logo wil= l be important.=C2=A0

Fo= r example, the text 'Pandoc' is perfect as symbolic (in string) ide= ntity because it is sufficiently identical from other products and says wha= t it is. (pan-document -> universal document converter)

After many proposals (thanks a lot!), I = confirmed the text `Pandoc` is still strong as a pseudo-logo symbol in this= point. The (reverse) pilcrow symbol might weaken the identity because it c= ould cause missread: "I'm a paragraph."

I think it is difficult to conclude this grap= hic identity issue. I will propose another point: practical use.

## In practical use

I haven't written enough why I ne= ed in practical point. I sometimes feel inconvenient and need a graphic Pan= doc logo when:

- finding= our user's guide page from many browser tabs (currently its favicon is= the browser default)
- making a diagram to explain = my publishing workflow: pandoc -> =C2=A0(rst) -> Sphinx -> Web sit= e
- writing a book that explains Pandoc (I want to u= se official logo in its cover page!)

'To expand Pandoc to the world' in the first quote imp= lies this usage above actually but I have not explained much.

Then in practical point the *official= * logo spec will be:

1. = can be square and make favicon for pandoc.org= (at least 32=C3=9732 px for modern browsers)
2.= can be downloaded in pdf (or svg) and png (or jpg) for general graphic des= ign and diagrams
3. [optional] fit for the current w= ebsite: pandoc.org (not need to an image)=
4. seem to be graphically identical in the logo of = spec 1-3

For example the= rasterize version of the sans serif text 'P' in 32=C3=9732 satisfi= es the spec 1. pdf/png version of the current top page header text 'Pan= doc' satisfies the spec 2. Spec 3 is not necessary. Spec 4 is obviously= satisfied. This will be minimal set of logo that satisfies the spec.
=

Alexis' one as jgm mentio= ned will be satisfies the spec 1-4 and we can filter other existing ideas w= ith the spec.

Thank you = for discussion and give cool ideas.=C2=A0

=
Regards,
Yuki F


2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=97=A5) 8:53 John= MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>= ;:

I'm really not sure what to say:=C2=A0 people here seem to want
a logo much more than I do, so I feel a lot of pressure.
But since I don't think we NEED a logo, I'm not going to go
to go for one unless it really looks right.

I actually think this one by Alexis is pretty nice, though
now it has been accused of amateurism. Well, I'm not a graphic
designer, so I wouldn't know. But I like it better than the other
proposals of reverse pilcrows in boxes.

I do think that it makes sense, if we have a logo, to have
the canonical version be a particular vector image, and not
just, say, a reverse pilcrow typeset any old way. That's not a
logo, it's just a symbol.


Alexis BRENON <brenon.alexis-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> I agree that it doesn't have to be a real/specific font.
> In the beginning, the idea was to be able to insert the logo without > relying on a "premade" image.
> But as we can see, using the chosen pilcrow as a letter inside a word<= br> > doesn't feel well.
> Moreover, as it is a manually reversed pilcrow, it can't be easily= added to
> all formats.
> In my opinion, designing a "pictural" logo would let us more= room to make a
> good one, and would better fit the use cases (like the one showcased b= y
> @allefeld).
>
> From this idea, I made a variant of the Vollkorn pilcrow taking some i= deas
> from the whole conversation.
> John seems to like to see the "pi" letter as well as a "= ;D", and most of us
> agree on using something looking like a "P".
> So I separated the bowl from the vertical lines bringing some advantag= es:
> * The "pi" and the "D" are more visible (I can sti= ll do more works on the
> upper junction to make the "pi" more evident -- adding some = curve similar
> to the left one, making some offset overlap to highlight the separatio= n,
> etc.)
> * We keep a "P" shape related to the first letter of "P= andoc"
> * It is not a "simple" pilcrow anymore, so decrease the risk= of confusion
> from the users.
>
> Using a box around is a good idea making it stands as "I am a log= o".
> However, a simple square or diamond doesn't bring much meaning. > I used an ISO A4 page symbol which was often used in the previous logo=
> propositions.
> One more time, some more work can be done here, like using a letter-si= zed
> page (which would make it more squarish).
>
> [image: logo_512.png]
>
> What do you think about this compromised: starting from a well-designe= d
> pilcrow and customizing it to make it looks like a logo.
>
> Kind.
>
> Le mar. 14 janv. 2020 =C3=A0 21:46, BPJ <melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> a =C3=A9crit :
>
>> Does it necessarily have to be a specific font? I doubt people wil= l care
>> about such details as long as the general look is the expected one= , the
>> pilcrow, a box (the idea of a square rotated 45 degrees, i.e. a lo= zenge,
>> seems a good one to me BTW) and the expected general color in a co= lor
>> document. OTOH if the font is the "right" one but other = details are wrong,
>> like a non-reversed pilcrow, a circle instead of a box or the wron= g color
>> the "right" font doesn't help.=C2=A0 Most people who= aren't font nerds (I used
>> to be one when I was younger actually) won't notice any font d= ifferences
>> less gross than filled vs. not filled, w/o a "leg" or sa= ns vs. serif.
>>
>>
>> Den tors 9 jan. 2020 18:52allefeld <c_a-1KBjaw7Xf1+zQB+pC5nmwQ@public.gmane.org> skrev:
>>
>>> I did have the concern expressed above that the reversed Pilcr= ow
>>>> in a box e.g. in an editor menu looks like it should creat= e a new
>>>> paragraph,
>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't be too concerned about that. The Pilcrow is fam= iliar as an
>>> end-of-paragraph symbol, but I have never seen an editor that = uses it to
>>> stand for "create paragraph".
>>>
>>> Apparently there is a Pilcrow button in MS Word, but that stan= ds for
>>> "show hidden formatting".
>>>
>>> For my own package, I think that the documentation
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://github.c= om/allefeld/atom-pandoc-pdf#toolbar-buttons
>>> should make it completely clear.
>>>
>>> And once the symbol is used on the Pandoc website, users will<= br> >>> automatically start associating it with Pandoc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> and isn't obviously recognizable as a logo.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A properly designed logo would certainly be nice. A while ago = there was a
>>> comment from a designer on the repo offering to design a logo.= I left a
>>> comment, maybe he chimes in.
>>>
>>> But I would propose that for the moment we just settle on a fo= nt, and
>>> leave possible further logo design for the future.
>>>
>>> And that would mean that you, John, have to decide which font = it is
>>> supposed to be. :)
>>>
>>> C
>>>
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>>>
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>> <= https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhARUsq4GnQAuykH4tXjH= AaRe%3DYB2EKEwnshJZ9496K-9Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sou= rce=3Dfooter>
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--
=E8=97=A4=E5=8E=9F =E7=94=B1=E6=9D=A5 (Y= uki Fujiwara)
sky.y.0079@gmail.c= om

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