From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/27809 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: BPJ Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 15:57:25 +0100 Message-ID: References: <9824c91ca9f60d7d4928eb5c7256cb54db86cf57.camel@posteo.de> <6c4d351890d56e3a701d80647aa373c2a2cdb0cf.camel@posteo.de> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007f93d105bc0223e0" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28562"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCWMVYEK54FRBYFP2SAQMGQEHAMQM5Y-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Tue Feb 23 15:57:39 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-lj1-f183.google.com ([209.85.208.183]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lEZ86-0007IP-Vj for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; 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[209.85.167.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a26si463316lff.2.2021.02.23.06.57.35 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 209.85.167.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.167.47; Original-Received: by mail-lf1-f47.google.com with SMTP id m22so11634258lfg.5 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:57:35 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a19:ec16:: with SMTP id b22mr12889950lfa.1.1614092255072; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 06:57:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 209.85.167.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:27809 Archived-At: --0000000000007f93d105bc0223e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The main linguistic problem I can see is that the proper form of 'others' may be gender dependent for some languages. In Icelandic it would be feminine, masculine or neuter depending on whether the list of others is all female, all male or mixed. You could fudge it by always using neuter, and for other languages whichever form is used for groups of indeterminate gender, but the results may seem odd to native speakers. This kind of uneasy compromises because of insufficient data are of course common in computing, but should be considered. --=20 Better --help|less than helpless Den tis 23 feb. 2021 15:45 skrev: > Yes, inputwise open ended name list are not supported by CSL at the > moment. If I understand the code correctly, Pandoc splits bibtex name lis= ts > at "and" at the moment, with the "others" being returned as `Just > "others"`. Shouldn't it be possible to translate that string? Or to throw > an error/warning message? > ________________________________________ > Von: 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss > Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Februar 2021 15:21:29 > An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org > Betreff: Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists > > IIRC pandoc does not try to convert "and others" from bibtex or biblatex > to CSL since the CSL specs just don=E2=80=99t seem to support abbreviatin= g a list > of authors with a placeholder - and I for one can=E2=80=99t really think = of a > sensible way of handling this automatically. > > In effect, CSL assumes that it=E2=80=99s always possible to include a ful= l list of > authors in one=E2=80=99s database. Unless the names of the "others" are g= enuinely > unobtainable, I guess that would be the way to go in this case, too. > > What CSL does support is abbreviating lists of authors when formatting > bibliographies. So if the number of authors seems too large to be include= d > in the output, one could always try to find (or modify) a CSL style that > renders an abbreviated list only. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/PWVXqUu44Lx_hAkn2QC4F5RE= KYzoaUVyKOF98umWHu-nsuXv2IAwn7D2M5RTqvd_d9SVHJjphCeguLXIozJdayAqsIukkyRYZlX= jVCDXmgI%3D%40protonmail.com > . > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/e34f8a7159dd4ff299dbd4a1= 8e3a5c96%40ub.unibe.ch > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhAqNWMC6ZsNauj%3Dgd2XMpkFaKNi92kk%3Dz4LfW11TyYwtg%40ma= il.gmail.com. --0000000000007f93d105bc0223e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The main linguistic problem I can see is that the proper = form of 'others' may be gender dependent for some languages. In Ice= landic it would be feminine, masculine or neuter depending on whether the l= ist of others is all female, all male or mixed. You could fudge it by alway= s using neuter, and for other languages whichever form is used for groups o= f indeterminate gender, but the results may seem odd to native speakers. Th= is kind of uneasy compromises because of insufficient data are of course co= mmon in computing, but should be considered.

--
Better --help|less than helpless

Den tis 23 fe= b. 2021 15:45 <denis.maier@ub= .unibe.ch> skrev:
Yes, inp= utwise open ended name list are not supported by CSL at the moment. If I un= derstand the code correctly, Pandoc splits bibtex name lists at "and&q= uot; at the moment, with the "others" being returned as `Just &qu= ot;others"`. Shouldn't it be possible to translate that string? Or= to throw an error/warning=C2=A0 message?
________________________________________
Von: 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss= @googlegroups.com>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Februar 2021 15:21:29
An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
Betreff: Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists<= br>
IIRC pandoc does not try to convert "and others" from bibtex or b= iblatex to CSL since the CSL specs just don=E2=80=99t seem to support abbre= viating a list of authors with a placeholder - and I for one can=E2=80=99t = really think of a sensible way of handling this automatically.

In effect, CSL assumes that it=E2=80=99s always possible to include a full = list of authors in one=E2=80=99s database. Unless the names of the "ot= hers" are genuinely unobtainable, I guess that would be the way to go = in this case, too.

What CSL does support is abbreviating lists of authors when formatting bibl= iographies. So if the number of authors seems too large to be included in t= he output, one could always try to find (or modify) a CSL style that render= s an abbreviated list only.

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