From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/23399 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: BPJ Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Transliterated and original titles/names in citations Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 12:05:32 +0200 Message-ID: References: <0c05fcec-fbb7-aed6-c1ec-e84610bcdd96@gmail.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba1d400591f3b26b" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="213626"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCWMVYEK54FRB6UBZ3VQKGQEBNOFDCA-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Sat Sep 07 12:05:48 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-qk1-f184.google.com ([209.85.222.184]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i6XbI-000tS5-2U for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; 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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u44si552459qtb.5.2019.09.07.03.05.45 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c; Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 7so7082491oip.5 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:5c45:: with SMTP id q66mr8909303oib.132.1567850745173; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:05:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0c05fcec-fbb7-aed6-c1ec-e84610bcdd96-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=X+lRoMrP; spf=pass (google.com: domain of melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:23399 Archived-At: --000000000000ba1d400591f3b26b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just realized two things which make matters much worse: 1. Not all publications accept the same transliteration schemes. Just by surveying one author's references to his own works in one bibliography I find that his surname, =D0=AF=D0=B1=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0= =B9, can be transliterated in five different ways (although two predominate)! So I'll need both a `transliterated title` field and a field `transliterated authors` field with (in each item) a mapping of alternative transliterations. Even Icelandic needs to be transliterated sometimes, e.g. =C3=9E=C3=B3r=C3=B0ur becoming Th=C3=B3rdur = (with data loss!) 2. Sorting. Latin letters like _=C4=8D, =C5=A1, =C5=BE_ need to sort as _c= , s, z_ and probably _=C3=9E_ must sometimes sort like _Th_ and sometimes after _z_! Th= is needs sometimes tailored locale dependent sorting! Accented letters can ideally be handled by entering things in NFC and hoping that sort algorithms ignore combining marks, but then e.g. in Scandinavian languages _=C3=B6_ sorts not as _o_ but at the end of the alphabet (ideally _=C3=BE, = =C3=A6, =C3=B8, =C3=A5, =C3=A4, =C3=B6_ go at the end of the alphabet in that order, but often _=C3= =A6/=C3=A4, =C3=B8/=C3=B6_ are conflated either before or after _=C3=A5_!). Anyway it seems CSL has no customizable sort key field. I know how to handle these things myself with [Unicode::Collate][] but that at least means some postprocessing of as yet unknown complexity. Den ons 4 sep. 2019 09:33BPJ skrev: > Does anyone know how to handle transliterated titles and names in > citations, when you want to include both the transliteration and the > original? Does CSL have any fields for that? > > TIA, > > /bpj > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhButR28wyxanhAEYJnjmnRtBQ8OraU0aZ86BHRmkm1SjA%40mail.g= mail.com. --000000000000ba1d400591f3b26b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just realized two things which m= ake matters much worse:

= 1.=C2=A0 Not all publications accept the same transliteration schemes. Just= by surveying one author's references to his own works in one bibliogra= phy I find that his surname, =D0=AF=D0=B1=D0=BB=D0=BE=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0= =B8=D0=B9, can be transliterated in five different ways (although two predo= minate)! So I'll need both a `transliterated title` field and a field `= transliterated authors` field with (in each item) a mapping of alternative = transliterations. Even Icelandic needs to be transliterated sometimes, e.g.= =C3=9E=C3=B3r=C3=B0ur becoming Th=C3=B3rdur (with data loss!)

2. Sorting. Latin letters like _=C4= =8D, =C5=A1,=C2=A0 =C5=BE_ need to sort as _c, s, z_ and probably _=C3=9E_ = must sometimes sort like _Th_ and sometimes after _z_! This needs sometimes= tailored locale dependent sorting! Accented letters can ideally be handled= by entering things in NFC and hoping that sort algorithms ignore combining= marks, but then e.g. in Scandinavian languages _=C3=B6_ sorts not as _o_ b= ut at the end of the alphabet (ideally _=C3=BE, =C3=A6, =C3=B8, =C3=A5, =C3= =A4, =C3=B6_ go at the end of the alphabet in that order, but often _=C3=A6= /=C3=A4, =C3=B8/=C3=B6_ are conflated either before or after _=C3=A5_!). An= yway it seems CSL has no customizable sort key field. I know how to handle = these things myself with [Unicode::Collate][] but that at least means some = postprocessing of as yet unknown complexity.

Den ons 4 sep. 2019 09:33BPJ &l= t;melroch-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> skrev:
=
Does anyone know how to handle transli= terated titles and names in
citations, when you want to include both the transliteration and the
original? Does CSL have any fields for that?

TIA,

/bpj

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