(unknown)

(unknown)

[BPJ]

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(Apologies to those who get cross-posts of this — I hope to reach as many
as possible, and believe that there may be people here who have relevant
experience.)

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for advice from people who have used LaTeX, preferably XeLaTeX
but LuaLaTeX is interesting too,[1] to write a (“traditional”) reference
grammar (or even better an historical reference grammar), and if so have
you anything to share — code or pointers or examples? I will almost
certainly mesh LaTeX and Pandoc so experiences from handling the issues
mentioned below in that context are very welcome.

I have tried to find something on CTAN but have come up empty handed, and
googling “write [natural language] reference grammar with LaTeX” has proved
useless.

The first feature I will need is section numbers — “§ 42” style — which are

-   in the left margin against a paragraph;
-   possible to reference with links in the PDF;
-   preferably using a label since the actual numbers may be subject to
change when adding/moving around parts;
-   with running § numbers (of first § on left page and (preferably) last §
on right page) in the page headers;
-   independent of chapter/heading structure: a § number/label stands
against a paragraph rather than a heading, and naturally a paragraph may or
may not have one;
-   possibile to have indices — index rerum and index verborum for multiple
languages — referring to § numbers rather than pages.

So I think that more generally this is about

-   custom label/reference categories;
-   custom counters;
-   getting things into the (left) margin flush with the top of a paragraph;
-   getting custom things (involving counters) into page headers;
-   custom index formats, specifically indices referencing other numbers
than page numbers.[2]

I fully expect to have to set up most of this myself, and am willing to
write external scripts to deal with aspects of it — preferred language Perl
(which I have been using since the mid nineties) and I’m able and willing
to use PerlTeX if convenient, since I’m a far better Perl than TeX
programmer, although getting a grip on LaTeX solutions would be wonderful!
:-) I also have Lua experience but as I'm using above-ASCII Unicode a lot
Lua may be less useful. FWIW I have a good grip on how to do
Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Perl and I have even written (slow)
code to do Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Lua.

[1] This involves needing to use system fonts and Unicode/UTF-8 encoded
text using multiple scripts. Mostly Latin, IPA, Greek and some Cyrillic,
but using some “exotic” Latin letters and combining marks.

[2] This looks relevant: <https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534>.
Using memoir seems to be a good idea anyway.

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Re: (unknown)

[Rik]

On 2023-05-25 09:52, BPJ wrote:
> (Apologies to those who get cross-posts of this — I hope to reach as 
> many as possible, and believe that there may be people here who have 
> relevant experience.)
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm looking for advice from people who have used LaTeX, preferably 
> XeLaTeX but LuaLaTeX is interesting too,[1] to write a (“traditional”) 
> reference grammar (or even better an historical reference grammar), and 
> if so have you anything to share — code or pointers or examples? I will 
> almost certainly mesh LaTeX and Pandoc so experiences from handling the 
> issues mentioned below in that context are very welcome.
> 
> I have tried to find something on CTAN but have come up empty handed, 
> and googling “write [natural language] reference grammar with LaTeX” has 
> proved useless.
> 
> The first feature I will need is section numbers — “§ 42” style — which are
> 
> -   in the left margin against a paragraph;
> -   possible to reference with links in the PDF;
> -   preferably using a label since the actual numbers may be subject to 
> change when adding/moving around parts;
> -   with running § numbers (of first § on left page and (preferably) 
> last § on right page) in the page headers;
> -   independent of chapter/heading structure: a § number/label stands 
> against a paragraph rather than a heading, and naturally a paragraph may 
> or may not have one;
> -   possibile to have indices — index rerum and index verborum for 
> multiple languages — referring to § numbers rather than pages.
> 
> So I think that more generally this is about
> 
> -   custom label/reference categories;
> -   custom counters;
> -   getting things into the (left) margin flush with the top of a paragraph;
> -   getting custom things (involving counters) into page headers;
> -   custom index formats, specifically indices referencing other numbers 
> than page numbers.[2]
> 
> I fully expect to have to set up most of this myself, and am willing to 
> write external scripts to deal with aspects of it — preferred language 
> Perl (which I have been using since the mid nineties) and I’m able and 
> willing to use PerlTeX if convenient, since I’m a far better Perl than 
> TeX programmer, although getting a grip on LaTeX solutions would be 
> wonderful! :-) I also have Lua experience but as I'm using above-ASCII 
> Unicode a lot Lua may be less useful. FWIW I have a good grip on how to 
> do Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Perl and I have even written 
> (slow) code to do Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Lua.
> 
> [1] This involves needing to use system fonts and Unicode/UTF-8 encoded 
> text using multiple scripts. Mostly Latin, IPA, Greek and some Cyrillic, 
> but using some “exotic” Latin letters and combining marks.
> 
> [2] This looks relevant: <https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534 
> <https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534>>.  Using memoir seems to 
> be a good idea anyway.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to 
> pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org 
> <mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

I believe that ConTeXt can handle all of these requirements. Refer to 
\definelabel and related for the first three requirements, 
\definemarking and related for the next, and register subentries for the 
last (see https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context-wvrSQK3plZs@public.gmane.org/msg74028.html) 
for more on that.

-- 
Rik

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Re: reference grammar (was: unknown)

[BPJ]

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First of all apologies for forgetting to put a subject on my original post!

Den fre 26 maj 2023 00:20Rik <amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> skrev:

> On 2023-05-25 09:52, BPJ wrote:
> > (Apologies to those who get cross-posts of this — I hope to reach as
> > many as possible, and believe that there may be people here who have
> > relevant experience.)
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I'm looking for advice from people who have used LaTeX, preferably
> > XeLaTeX but LuaLaTeX is interesting too,[1] to write a (“traditional”)
> > reference grammar (or even better an historical reference grammar), and
> > if so have you anything to share — code or pointers or examples? I will
> > almost certainly mesh LaTeX and Pandoc so experiences from handling the
> > issues mentioned below in that context are very welcome.
> >
> > I have tried to find something on CTAN but have come up empty handed,
> > and googling “write [natural language] reference grammar with LaTeX” has
> > proved useless.
> >
> > The first feature I will need is section numbers — “§ 42” style — which
> are
> >
> > -   in the left margin against a paragraph;
> > -   possible to reference with links in the PDF;
> > -   preferably using a label since the actual numbers may be subject to
> > change when adding/moving around parts;
> > -   with running § numbers (of first § on left page and (preferably)
> > last § on right page) in the page headers;
> > -   independent of chapter/heading structure: a § number/label stands
> > against a paragraph rather than a heading, and naturally a paragraph may
> > or may not have one;
> > -   possibile to have indices — index rerum and index verborum for
> > multiple languages — referring to § numbers rather than pages.
> >
> > So I think that more generally this is about
> >
> > -   custom label/reference categories;
> > -   custom counters;
> > -   getting things into the (left) margin flush with the top of a
> paragraph;
> > -   getting custom things (involving counters) into page headers;
> > -   custom index formats, specifically indices referencing other numbers
> > than page numbers.[2]
> >
> > I fully expect to have to set up most of this myself, and am willing to
> > write external scripts to deal with aspects of it — preferred language
> > Perl (which I have been using since the mid nineties) and I’m able and
> > willing to use PerlTeX if convenient, since I’m a far better Perl than
> > TeX programmer, although getting a grip on LaTeX solutions would be
> > wonderful! :-) I also have Lua experience but as I'm using above-ASCII
> > Unicode a lot Lua may be less useful. FWIW I have a good grip on how to
> > do Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Perl and I have even written
> > (slow) code to do Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Lua.
> >
> > [1] This involves needing to use system fonts and Unicode/UTF-8 encoded
> > text using multiple scripts. Mostly Latin, IPA, Greek and some Cyrillic,
> > but using some “exotic” Latin letters and combining marks.
> >
> > [2] This looks relevant: <https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534
> > <https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534>>.  Using memoir seems to
> > be a good idea anyway.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> > an email to
> > pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> > <mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com
> <
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> >.



> I believe that ConTeXt can handle all of these requirements. Refer to
> \definelabel and related for the first three requirements,
> \definemarking and related for the next, and register subentries for the
> last (see https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context-wvrSQK3plZs@public.gmane.org/msg74028.html)
> for more on that.
>

That looks promising, if it is worth the learning curve since there are a
number of LaTeX packages which I already rely on which may not have a ready
ConTeXt equivalent. How hard would it be to define a sort order for a new
script, perhaps wholly or partly located in the/a PUA?


> --
> Rik
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/u4omtu%24jj4%241%40ciao.gmane.io
> .
>

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Re: reference grammar (was: unknown)

[Bastien DUMONT]

Using both LaTeX and ConTeXt, I find that ConTeXt is worth the learning curve if you have specific typographic requirements. A good starting point is the “Not so short introduction to ConTeXt”, and then you can explore the various manuals and the wiki. However, a lot of commands are rather badly documented, so you will have to do experiments with them and read the source code. The mailing list and its archive are a good source of information too.

Regarding sorting, you may be interested in https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Command/definesorting. It is possible to add a language in the sorters.definitions Lua table via \directlua after https://source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/base/mkiv/sort-lan.lua (I just wrote a simple example, you can contact me privately if you are interested).

Le Sunday 28 May 2023 à 12:27:17PM, BPJ a écrit :
> First of all apologies for forgetting to put a subject on my original post!
> 
> Den fre 26 maj 2023 00:20Rik <[1]amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> skrev:
> 
>     On 2023-05-25 09:52, BPJ wrote:
>     > (Apologies to those who get cross-posts of this — I hope to reach as
>     > many as possible, and believe that there may be people here who have
>     > relevant experience.)
>     >
>     > Hello everyone,
>     >
>     > I'm looking for advice from people who have used LaTeX, preferably
>     > XeLaTeX but LuaLaTeX is interesting too,[1] to write a (“traditional”)
>     > reference grammar (or even better an historical reference grammar), and
>     > if so have you anything to share — code or pointers or examples? I will
>     > almost certainly mesh LaTeX and Pandoc so experiences from handling the
>     > issues mentioned below in that context are very welcome.
>     >
>     > I have tried to find something on CTAN but have come up empty handed,
>     > and googling “write [natural language] reference grammar with LaTeX” has
>     > proved useless.
>     >
>     > The first feature I will need is section numbers — “§ 42” style — which
>     are
>     >
>     > -   in the left margin against a paragraph;
>     > -   possible to reference with links in the PDF;
>     > -   preferably using a label since the actual numbers may be subject to
>     > change when adding/moving around parts;
>     > -   with running § numbers (of first § on left page and (preferably)
>     > last § on right page) in the page headers;
>     > -   independent of chapter/heading structure: a § number/label stands
>     > against a paragraph rather than a heading, and naturally a paragraph may
>     > or may not have one;
>     > -   possibile to have indices — index rerum and index verborum for
>     > multiple languages — referring to § numbers rather than pages.
>     >
>     > So I think that more generally this is about
>     >
>     > -   custom label/reference categories;
>     > -   custom counters;
>     > -   getting things into the (left) margin flush with the top of a
>     paragraph;
>     > -   getting custom things (involving counters) into page headers;
>     > -   custom index formats, specifically indices referencing other numbers
>     > than page numbers.[2]
>     >
>     > I fully expect to have to set up most of this myself, and am willing to
>     > write external scripts to deal with aspects of it — preferred language
>     > Perl (which I have been using since the mid nineties) and I’m able and
>     > willing to use PerlTeX if convenient, since I’m a far better Perl than
>     > TeX programmer, although getting a grip on LaTeX solutions would be
>     > wonderful! :-) I also have Lua experience but as I'm using above-ASCII
>     > Unicode a lot Lua may be less useful. FWIW I have a good grip on how to
>     > do Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Perl and I have even written
>     > (slow) code to do Unicode-aware/custom-order sorting in Lua.
>     >
>     > [1] This involves needing to use system fonts and Unicode/UTF-8 encoded
>     > text using multiple scripts. Mostly Latin, IPA, Greek and some Cyrillic,
>     > but using some “exotic” Latin letters and combining marks.
>     >
>     > [2] This looks relevant: <[2]https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534
>     > <[3]https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534>>.  Using memoir seems to
>     > be a good idea anyway.
>     >
>     > --
>     > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>     > Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
>     > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>     > an email to
>     > [4]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
>     > <mailto:[5]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>.
>     > To view this discussion on the web visit
>     > [6]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/
>     CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com <[7]
>     https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/
>     CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com?
>     utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> 
> 
> 
>     I believe that ConTeXt can handle all of these requirements. Refer to
>     \definelabel and related for the first three requirements,
>     \definemarking and related for the next, and register subentries for the
>     last (see [8]https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context-wvrSQK3plZs@public.gmane.org/msg74028.html)
>     for more on that.
> 
> 
> That looks promising, if it is worth the learning curve since there are a
> number of LaTeX packages which I already rely on which may not have a ready
> ConTeXt equivalent. How hard would it be to define a sort order for a new
> script, perhaps wholly or partly located in the/a PUA?
> 
> 
> 
>     --
>     Rik
> 
>     --
>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>     "pandoc-discuss" group.
>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>     email to [9]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>     To view this discussion on the web visit [10]https://groups.google.com/d/
>     msgid/pandoc-discuss/u4omtu%24jj4%241%40ciao.gmane.io.
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
> to [11]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit [12]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> pandoc-discuss/
> CADAJKhDp12Y8yc8uzA75zL%2BPe-3_G%3D8RKe_8t%3DCAkgB1QxUwpQ%40mail.gmail.com.
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] mailto:amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> [2] https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534
> [3] https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/63674/93534
> [4] mailto:pandoc-discuss%2Bunsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> [5] mailto:pandoc-discuss%2Bunsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> [6] https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com
> [7] https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhBggA8DZjkoC%3Dm7GvWRK-PdG-eDByP03tE47znBY4qOiw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> [8] https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context-wvrSQK3plZs@public.gmane.org/msg74028.html
> [9] mailto:pandoc-discuss%2Bunsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> [10] https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/u4omtu%24jj4%241%40ciao.gmane.io
> [11] mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> [12] https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CADAJKhDp12Y8yc8uzA75zL%2BPe-3_G%3D8RKe_8t%3DCAkgB1QxUwpQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

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