From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/16443 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: BP Jonsson Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: RFC: Designing Logo of Pandoc Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:39:21 +0100 Message-ID: References: <3298337b-6214-4927-bca7-d33ccddca3fa@googlegroups.com> <87shpywqjj.fsf@fastmail.fm> <20161208125813.GA93986@Administrateurs-iMac-3.local> <49debf77-8594-487e-8c82-d92be13e9092@googlegroups.com> <92065ba0-cba5-2b43-92ae-1cf42e2618bd@gmail.com> <844cf7bd-c9f1-49e0-a1fd-81a827c9c667@googlegroups.com> <121f2a53-ddfe-46af-96b4-a03dcdbe80da@googlegroups.com> <20161209105407.GB96950@Administrateurs-iMac-3.local> <4f2fea29-9e58-a79a-0c49-1612844d5fa1@gmail.com> <5bba1098-d1c9-9d7e-0fbb-3914abd93364@gmail.com> <87zijzpfw0.fsf@espresso.zeitkraut.de> <8f87b3f6-41d0-47d7-a6fe-117892a30c46@googlegroups.com> <30f01b4c-8b2c-481a-96f9-dfd0ba37e71a@googlegroups.com> <29dbdf52-294b-b6a9-b598-ea742b5d4afb@gmail.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c057e92c09d620543c85f12 X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1481902767 16385 195.159.176.226 (16 Dec 2016 15:39:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:39:27 +0000 (UTC) To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDIY76M674FRBK4V2DBAKGQEDXNSL7Y-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Fri Dec 16 16:39:23 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-pg0-f55.google.com ([74.125.83.55]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cHubP-0002uy-Lh for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:39:20 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-pg0-f55.google.com with SMTP id a1sf15215676pgf.1 for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=GjgKlfLF1TN4wXUIQBKjdGX8M2mEH8c/29LBM6fGR1M=; b=Phdi3Doa7nybkfViTW0DUTcabnKr8iU/7H5QgNxPDdvMACU32RVBMxqHk8T4/uEOGn BTjMT/4/4yNgqwhON+XgSKC0tLUJIJr/EyhwKH5SyJkza5GR6au72X0UZIWoomXSn3zE Wz8vROUgPbqSN+x2gUVZuezkpTkhNVMXMwYOwzJg4AR2hQVQb6w/ohnv2Yqr+FZP66r+ WgVHqOBwrGrCESeSElna+ycotfG1UqUMgryfuO+7qqZzMtzPC8v7BqoGwb+/SyiOua/c FIc7x+7iYB7uj0rJl2OcZ/MkZoFw0PW75kB5kP3Lp8fpbjPDqa2C6hVRf2wRiJJdoq/P AICA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=GjgKlfLF1TN4wXUIQBKjdGX8M2mEH8c/29LBM6fGR1M=; b=kpGnMz69VGjC6fDJ4CAhGKSD7JgduY65kOaxkJJFGSuIx26m7lefbtJsyCyaX+mlqI B5lLSjBOd85+neCsv/kmOuX4i51TpF07KPE3aDSKfbnGt6LR3l/NZ8R12L7VBu6DasBH 8139yFlyp53/ze1DiQJRG7GgrCh0tsc7gDGeMMEJikEACKmV8RiFwHcJ+MzEbldRTDDz xAqfHvHz+YXpleij1jIg60YGfqz5WANLlKA/bcvZbEDmyhkop/UZVlxgUrYhjxc7dg2X 4GVstTZGyppLIQc7qV4wC2WPuTdSbjFyGPYCU0stPgUF57hcSP4+zUwmIwRMvEM50pYk fwpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=GjgKlfLF1TN4wXUIQBKjdGX8M2mEH8c/29LBM6fGR1M=; b=bfMXEETGhtYPHu36VjNIePq7gleyoBn5VNUeciKg9DahW1yvx5WxLZ/MRUUdyIxBUQ rr81vYtGCUPw8Rz9Wxr0p9wG5gb3Sje0LIqn3L99Dp+UQ+9eGOGWvkWV99Z/dVz7+iVQ 7jUGbK4jPif11V8wQJi+5MQfP8ke+g2tQ3Tq8JbaiWtGq4FeyeI4Z5wSGLCmuDhafOnE 9TL07GRSaIIsliaQJqho/uIWUsVgLRnH+QKpOFCrriBmVOt7g3cD7JO5wTYqAMBVCLis oHD6doLQMqNjSuVdOKLKMIfk7QwcdAhkYYnjQOaSrbX+TMfiT9FBCi3uawS7pNMPsgZN Ib8Q== Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC02RdTU+MEaGuvKbmS8faN8bZCTPT2ciKvmpg7jA0B9i9P54D3ujyokEmVuciuFOaw== X-Received: by 10.36.76.22 with SMTP id a22mr184109itb.0.1481902763864; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.107.3.71 with SMTP id 68ls2554610iod.0.gmail; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.99.178.79 with SMTP id t15mr1735802pgo.45.1481902763019; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:23 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from mail-it0-x229.google.com (mail-it0-x229.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j62si388204itb.2.2016.12.16.07.39.22 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229; Original-Received: by mail-it0-x229.google.com with SMTP id l8so19248003iti.1 for ; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:22 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.36.200.10 with SMTP id w10mr3207309itf.21.1481902762530; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:22 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.107.15.81 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:21 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.107.15.81 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:39:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <29dbdf52-294b-b6a9-b598-ea742b5d4afb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:16443 Archived-At: --94eb2c057e92c09d620543c85f12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TL;DR: I see no reason to require that a logo reflects aspects of the project beyond the basic public interface, and absolutely no reason to make a logo design unnecessarily complex for such a reason, because there shouldn't be any pressure on users to get involved beyond the public interface, except as and when they feel the need themselves. I've been thinking a bit more about this and I wonder what kinds of misunderstandings of the model you are thinking of. The closest thing I have seen on this list and on StackExchange has been users getting bitten by this or that feature of LaTeX or RestructuredText not being representable in the current AST format. I wouldn't call that misunderstanding of the model but rather ignorance of what structural elements of supported markup formats *the current implementation of the model* can or cannot represent. That's not even limitations of the model but limitations of the current implementation which could be removed[^1] in a future implementation. I would argue that if they were removed most users would just say "phew, finally pandoc supports my favorite markup feature" without caring about what changes in the implementation, let alone the model, have made it possible. That is as it should be. Users should not be required, prodded or even expected to understand the engineering behind an application, only the public interface. What sets open source apart is that users *may* explore, understand and get involved in the engineering, even are invited to do so, but there should be no pressure to do so. Even those who do get involved usually only do so as and when they are able and willing to enhance their own use of the product, or for their own gratification, and that's entirely as it should be. Myself I'm still a total Haskell illiterate, confining my contributions, and hence also my understanding, to filterland. I have gotten rather involved in Jakob's Perl filter support project, but that's in the end also helping myself to write filters in my preferred language. To be sure I have written some filters in response to requests on this list, but naturally that has been as and when I have had, or got, an interest in the functionality requested. Otherwise I have only more or less successfully requested John or others to add features I have needed. That may change some day but there are hundreds if not thousands of users out there who don't even get to the level where I am, and that's entirely legitimate. [^1]: NB I'm saying "could", not "should", but I'm thinking that even without extending the current set of AST elements some unsupported input format constructs could optionally be turned into Div, Span or link elements with certain attributes by the readers so that they could be handled with filters or turned back into their original constructs by the corresponding writers -- optionally, since those attributes containers would clutter the markdown output. That's another discussion however! /bpj Den 16 dec 2016 00:55 skrev "BP Jonsson" : > You may see the =E2=88=80 in the middle as representing the =E2=88=80ST a= round which the > conversion between different input and output formats revolves! :-) > > /bpj > > Den 2016-12-15 kl. 01:40, skrev Kolen Cheung: > >> >> >> On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:45:41 AM UTC-8, BP wrote: >> >> To a normal user (I.e. you aren=E2=80=99t a Pandoc contributor or filter= author) >> the AST is an implementation detail which you don=E2=80=99t interact wit= h. The >> normal user experience is pandoc -f markdown -t html`, i.e. you input a >> document in one markup format and get (a file) in anotheir markup format >> (possibly zipped together with sundry other files) as output, without an= y >> intermediate file or files. There is no point in creating a false >> impression that there always must be an intermediate file. In fact that >> may >> scare off potential normal users. To them the thing which sets pandoc >> apart >> from other light markup processors is that it supports conversion back a= nd >> forth between multiple markup formats, and the logo should emphasize tha= t. >> The logo needs to be intelligible and meaningful to the less geeky users >> which hopefully are in majority. >> >> /bpj >> >> It certainly is another possible perspective. So let me illustrate more = on >> my perspective: >> >> 1. >> >> There are countless examples of expectation from end-users (including >> me) that originated from the misunderstanding of what pandoc is and >> what >> pandoc does. Rather than trying not to =E2=80=9Cscare off potential n= ormal >> users=E2=80=9D >> (which is unlikely to happen from a logo alone, since they won=E2=80= =99t >> understand >> the nuance in it at first sight), may be we should set the expectatio= n >> right as early as possible, so that they won=E2=80=99t be disappointe= d later >> on, >> and will not waste time to use pandoc for the wrong task. >> 2. >> >> The logo having arrows pointing to a common element representing AST >> will not make a real difference on first sight. But it would be a gre= at >> =E2=80=9Centry point=E2=80=9D to talk about the philosophy behind pan= doc. Having a 2nd >> layer of sophistication means intelligible and meaningful to me. (i.e= . >> at >> first sight you get something, but there=E2=80=99s a deeper story beh= ind it.) >> - To further illustrate on this point, at first glance, pandoc seems >> very similar to some other tool, e.g. MultiMarkdown. But as one >> pushes the >> tools further, they will realize pandoc is much deeper than what i= t >> seems >> like at first glance. So, if the logo can have layers of meaning, = it >> represents pandoc better. >> >> I don=E2=80=99t mean it has to be done this way. I mean if there=E2=80= =99s arrows, arrows >> pointing to a common element is more correct and deeper, and doesn=E2=80= =99t >> really >> scare off people (may actually attract the right people), and is a path >> worth explore. But if no design makes this looks good and natural, we ne= ed >> not to force it. >> =E2=80=8B >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ms > gid/pandoc-discuss/29dbdf52-294b-b6a9-b598-ea742b5d4afb%40gmail.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuRfJ_8rEtGqxJvnWudMKT%2Bpgm8Go_cqoQ9TMDcN%2BqnsBA%40ma= il.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --94eb2c057e92c09d620543c85f12 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TL;DR: I see no reason to require that = a logo reflects aspects of the project beyond the basic public interface, a= nd absolutely no reason to make a logo design unnecessarily complex for suc= h a reason, because there shouldn't be any pressure on users to get inv= olved beyond the public interface, except as and when they feel the need th= emselves.

I've been = thinking a bit more about this and I wonder what kinds of misunderstandings= of the model you are thinking of. The closest thing I have seen on this li= st and on StackExchange has been users getting bitten by this or that featu= re of LaTeX or RestructuredText not being representable in the current AST = format. I wouldn't call that misunderstanding of the model but rather i= gnorance of what structural elements of supported markup formats *the curre= nt implementation of the model* can or cannot represent. That's not eve= n limitations of the model but limitations of the current implementation wh= ich could be removed[^1] in a future implementation. I would argue that if = they were removed most users would just say "phew, finally pandoc supp= orts my favorite markup feature" without caring about what changes in = the implementation, let alone the model, have made it possible. That is as = it should be. Users should not be required, prodded or even expected to und= erstand the engineering behind an application, only the public interface. W= hat sets open source apart is that users *may* explore, understand and get = involved in the engineering, even are invited to do so, but there should be= no pressure to do so. Even those who do get involved usually only do so as= and when they are able and willing to enhance their own use of the product= , or for their own gratification, and that's entirely as it should be. = Myself I'm still a total Haskell illiterate, confining my contributions= , and hence also my understanding, to filterland. I have gotten rather invo= lved in Jakob's Perl filter support project, but that's in the end = also helping myself to write filters in my preferred language. To be sure I= have written some filters in response to requests on this list, but natura= lly that has been as and when I have had, or got, an interest in the functi= onality requested. Otherwise I have only more or less successfully requeste= d John or others to add features I have needed. That may change some day bu= t there are hundreds if not thousands of users out there who don't even= get to the level where I am, and that's entirely legitimate.

[^1]: NB I'm saying "cou= ld", not "should", but I'm thinking that even without ex= tending the current set of AST elements some unsupported input format const= ructs could optionally be turned into Div, Span or link elements with certa= in attributes by the readers so that they could be handled with filters or = turned back into their original constructs by the corresponding writers -- = optionally, since those attributes containers would clutter the markdown ou= tput. That's another discussion however!

/bpj

Den 16 dec 2016 00:55 skrev "BP Jonsson" <= bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
You may see the =E2=88=80 i= n the middle as representing the =E2=88=80ST around which the conversion be= tween different input and output formats revolves! :-)

/bpj

Den 2016-12-15 kl. 01:40, skrev Kolen Cheung:


On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:45:41 AM UTC-8, BP wrote:

To a normal user (I.e. you aren=E2=80=99t a Pandoc contributor or filter au= thor)
the AST is an implementation detail which you don=E2=80=99t interact with. = The
normal user experience is pandoc -f markdown -t html`, i.e. you input a
document in one markup format and get (a file) in anotheir markup format (possibly zipped together with sundry other files) as output, without any intermediate file or files. There is no point in creating a false
impression that there always must be an intermediate file. In fact that may=
scare off potential normal users. To them the thing which sets pandoc apart=
from other light markup processors is that it supports conversion back and<= br> forth between multiple markup formats, and the logo should emphasize that.<= br> The logo needs to be intelligible and meaningful to the less geeky users which hopefully are in majority.

/bpj

It certainly is another possible perspective. So let me illustrate more on<= br> my perspective:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0There are countless examples of expectation from end-users (in= cluding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0me) that originated from the misunderstanding of what pandoc i= s and what
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pandoc does. Rather than trying not to =E2=80=9Cscare off pote= ntial normal users=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(which is unlikely to happen from a logo alone, since they won= =E2=80=99t understand
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the nuance in it at first sight), may be we should set the exp= ectation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0right as early as possible, so that they won=E2=80=99t be disa= ppointed later on,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and will not waste time to use pandoc for the wrong task.
=C2=A0 =C2=A02.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The logo having arrows pointing to a common element representi= ng AST
=C2=A0 =C2=A0will not make a real difference on first sight. But it would b= e a great
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Centry point=E2=80=9D to talk about the philosophy beh= ind pandoc. Having a 2nd
=C2=A0 =C2=A0layer of sophistication means intelligible and meaningful to m= e. (i.e. at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0first sight you get something, but there=E2=80=99s a deeper st= ory behind it.)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- To further illustrate on this point, at first glance, pandoc= seems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 very similar to some other tool, e.g. MultiMarkdown. B= ut as one pushes the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 tools further, they will realize pandoc is much deeper= than what it seems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 like at first glance. So, if the logo can have layers = of meaning, it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 represents pandoc better.

I don=E2=80=99t mean it has to be done this way. I mean if there=E2=80=99s = arrows, arrows
pointing to a common element is more correct and deeper, and doesn=E2=80=99= t really
scare off people (may actually attract the right people), and is a path
worth explore. But if no design makes this looks good and natural, we need<= br> not to force it.
=E2=80=8B


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To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://gro= ups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuRfJ_8rEtGqxJvnWudMKT%2Bpgm8Go_= cqoQ9TMDcN%2BqnsBA%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--94eb2c057e92c09d620543c85f12--