Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document

[BP Jonsson <bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>]

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@Daniel Yes I know there are WYSIWYG editors for markdown -- I came across
one when looking in vain for an Android editor with md syntax highlighting
-- but to me that seems like a contradiction in terms. I use md because it
is *not* WYSIWYG, yet easily readable!

@Pablo In my experience there are people who are comfortable with WYSIWYG
and people who are not. The latter grasp markdown immediately, while the
former are as annoyed by markup as the latter are by WYSIWYG. I tried to
set things up so that my son, who quite understandably was annoyed by htm,l
could edit details on his company website in markdown, but he found that
equally annoying, so he leaves all the actual editing to me. By contrast
the first thing I do when getting a manuscript as a .doc(x) file, which is
most of the time, is to convert it to markdown. I even wrote a Perl program
to convert styled spans in html exported by LibreOffice into em, strong
etc. which I so far still prefer to pandoc's .docx reader. Clients mostly
care about getting a readable translated/edited PDF/.doc(x)/RTF/LaTeX
document back, not how I made it. This doesn't mean I never have to work in
WYSIWYG but I do my best to avoid it for actual text work since for some
reason those styling buttons are terribly distracting! :-)

/bpj

måndag 31 augusti 2015 skrev Daniel Staal <DStaal-Jdbf3xiKgS8@public.gmane.org>:

> --As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodríguez is alleged to
> have said:
>
> On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
>>
>>> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for
>>> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that
>>> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are
>>> orthogonal.
>>>
>>
>> Many thanks for your reply, BPJ.
>>
>> Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I
>> was writing a manual in Spanish, but I’m afraid Markdown is too
>> complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging.
>>
>> Probably I’m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
>> proccessing programs for average users.
>>
>
> Probably true.  There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but
> pandoc isn't an editor.  It's a converter.  The editors give you a nice
> WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts to
> common markup.
>
> In principle we could use any markup to signal "the
>>> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independent
>>> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!)
>>> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div
>>> solution is a good one, semantically speaking.
>>>
>>
>> I didn’t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speaking.
>>
>> My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people.
>> Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement
>> bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user.
>>
>
> Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs.  Headers don't
> create new sections.  (Well, there is an option to make them create such,
> but semantically and under normal use I've often seen headers within a
> section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text.)  They
> often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always.
>
> Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should
>> be an easy task.
>>
>
> Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent.  ;)  This 'visible' marker
> (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text
> instead.  Depending on what the text was, basically.  Which will eventually
> surprise someone.
>
> (And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers
> automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the markup.)
>
> The problem I see with Markdown (and I’m afraid CommonMark doesn’t
>> solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people.
>>
>> The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines.
>> Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with
>> titles?
>>
>
> I honestly think you're over-thinking this.
>
> Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text.  *Don't* try to
> explain them in terms of paragraphs.  Simply say that a titles are a single
> line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title.
>
> A paragraph is any consecutive non-empty lines that *aren't* something
> else.  That 'something else' could be a title, or a list, or a table, or a
> code block, or a line block, or a quote block, or anything else that I'm
> missing or gets implemented in the future.  (Some of which can contain
> paragraphs, of course.)  We usually shorten it because people tend to
> understand 'this is a paragraph, and this is how you do $X instead of a
> paragraph' quite well.
>
> It is a consistent rule for computers (in fact they are two). But The
>> previous rule isn’t consistent for persons.
>>
>
> I just listed seven.  ;)  Or one, depending on how you look at it.
>
> And that's really my point: You're looking at it as seven, when really
> it's the one.  You're the one trying to go top-down and define it the
> complicated way.
>
> Sorry, this is the reason I want to use pandoc, but I won’t try to
>> explain unnecessarily complicated exceptions.
>>
>
> But the exceptions are the rule: A paragraph is what isn't something else.
> *Everything* is an exception.  And that's really what makes Markdown and
> CommonMark clean: You only mark up what needs to be differentiated from the
> main text.
>
> In the end, if you don't want exceptions, you end up with something like
> XML, which has a lot of visual noise because *everything* has to be covered
> in the 'normal' case.
>
> Daniel T. Staal
>
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