From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/13555 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: BP Jonsson Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Specifying location of bibliography in document Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 09:18:45 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20150829140403.GA47273@MacBook-Air.local> <20150829142113.GA47586@MacBook-Air.local> <55E35446.2000009@web.de> <55E498FA.90500@web.de> <13393D201344655C5B10B6A5@192.168.1.50> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0111d0c84b6def051eaa5c2c X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441091929 27251 80.91.229.3 (1 Sep 2015 07:18:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 07:18:49 +0000 (UTC) To: "pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org" Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDIY76M674FRBVNCSWXQKGQEWKSWW3Y-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Tue Sep 01 09:18:47 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-oi0-f55.google.com ([209.85.218.55]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWfqA-00078v-H9 for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 09:18:46 +0200 Original-Received: by oigm66 with SMTP id m66sf36184353oig.0 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 00:18:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=m1EZ+GS6wBP3Z6+qzZkxuLTrQgZdCfSlQpOuWGd7wAU=; b=nORZyflMgpPuNrHavNatbLw0fTsPjw7MxHhxERft9OgepfEp6s0rxBhyIZH93gk+bR bVlVRXyc0j4z+CPA5aRvPuvdvELN4mTxzAvnBDGeGQfRbVuhi6PHxFcFSmNWYA20jPwj XRAR+HZXL50yb6B54O4iohmpuRZyhshYfow/5CY+vSrR6Ej+jAGPWEQFhKZEcDg2kV3Z WZWI2RSOo2zosrLgc9/p/s2IEKXJxQSh7tFFJVDDeWYwYlnRW41wNJVWN/hcdL9AeI4/ B9Hu+Uz9EOqJY2S/mKeTONe7Um4I+FCVgCu1RdskIhpHIYAgd/JEhr5hUSerjXmDQ7a9 ZuOA== X-Received: by 10.50.110.1 with SMTP id hw1mr16505igb.0.1441091926409; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 00:18:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.107.137.218 with SMTP id t87ls1636184ioi.74.gmail; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 00:18:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.107.128.88 with SMTP id b85mr35790898iod.3.1441091925427; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 00:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from mail-ig0-x232.google.com (mail-ig0-x232.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u13si76732igr.3.2015.09.01.00.18.45 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Sep 2015 00:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232; Original-Received: by mail-ig0-x232.google.com with SMTP id ut12so43184345igb.0 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 00:18:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.124.4 with SMTP id me4mr1209186igb.34.1441091925272; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 00:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.107.20.199 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Sep 2015 00:18:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <13393D201344655C5B10B6A5-Q0ErXNX1RuZz+/J76PBWHg@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:13555 Archived-At: --089e0111d0c84b6def051eaa5c2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @Daniel Yes I know there are WYSIWYG editors for markdown -- I came across one when looking in vain for an Android editor with md syntax highlighting -- but to me that seems like a contradiction in terms. I use md because it is *not* WYSIWYG, yet easily readable! @Pablo In my experience there are people who are comfortable with WYSIWYG and people who are not. The latter grasp markdown immediately, while the former are as annoyed by markup as the latter are by WYSIWYG. I tried to set things up so that my son, who quite understandably was annoyed by htm,l could edit details on his company website in markdown, but he found that equally annoying, so he leaves all the actual editing to me. By contrast the first thing I do when getting a manuscript as a .doc(x) file, which is most of the time, is to convert it to markdown. I even wrote a Perl program to convert styled spans in html exported by LibreOffice into em, strong etc. which I so far still prefer to pandoc's .docx reader. Clients mostly care about getting a readable translated/edited PDF/.doc(x)/RTF/LaTeX document back, not how I made it. This doesn't mean I never have to work in WYSIWYG but I do my best to avoid it for actual text work since for some reason those styling buttons are terribly distracting! :-) /bpj m=C3=A5ndag 31 augusti 2015 skrev Daniel Staal : > --As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodr=C3=ADguez is alleged= to > have said: > > On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote: >> >>> While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for >>> divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that >>> issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are >>> orthogonal. >>> >> >> Many thanks for your reply, BPJ. >> >> Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I >> was writing a manual in Spanish, but I=E2=80=99m afraid Markdown is too >> complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging. >> >> Probably I=E2=80=99m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word >> proccessing programs for average users. >> > > Probably true. There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, but > pandoc isn't an editor. It's a converter. The editors give you a nice > WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give easy shortcuts to > common markup. > > In principle we could use any markup to signal "the >>> references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independen= t >>> both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!= ) >>> used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div >>> solution is a good one, semantically speaking. >>> >> >> I didn=E2=80=99t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speak= ing. >> >> My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people. >> Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement >> bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user. >> > > Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs. Headers don't > create new sections. (Well, there is an option to make them create such, > but semantically and under normal use I've often seen headers within a > section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text.) They > often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always. > > Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should >> be an easy task. >> > > Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent. ;) This 'visible' marker > (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would now hide the text > instead. Depending on what the text was, basically. Which will eventual= ly > surprise someone. > > (And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers > automatically create divs, you could still use your version of the markup= .) > > The problem I see with Markdown (and I=E2=80=99m afraid CommonMark doesn= =E2=80=99t >> solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people. >> >> The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines. >> Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with >> titles? >> > > I honestly think you're over-thinking this. > > Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text. *Don't* try to > explain them in terms of paragraphs. Simply say that a titles are a sing= le > line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a title. > > A paragraph is any consecutive non-empty lines that *aren't* something > else. That 'something else' could be a title, or a list, or a table, or = a > code block, or a line block, or a quote block, or anything else that I'm > missing or gets implemented in the future. (Some of which can contain > paragraphs, of course.) We usually shorten it because people tend to > understand 'this is a paragraph, and this is how you do $X instead of a > paragraph' quite well. > > It is a consistent rule for computers (in fact they are two). But The >> previous rule isn=E2=80=99t consistent for persons. >> > > I just listed seven. ;) Or one, depending on how you look at it. > > And that's really my point: You're looking at it as seven, when really > it's the one. You're the one trying to go top-down and define it the > complicated way. > > Sorry, this is the reason I want to use pandoc, but I won=E2=80=99t try t= o >> explain unnecessarily complicated exceptions. >> > > But the exceptions are the rule: A paragraph is what isn't something else= . > *Everything* is an exception. And that's really what makes Markdown and > CommonMark clean: You only mark up what needs to be differentiated from t= he > main text. > > In the end, if you don't want exceptions, you end up with something like > XML, which has a lot of visual noise because *everything* has to be cover= ed > in the 'normal' case. > > Daniel T. Staal > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > This email copyright the author. Unless otherwise noted, you > are expressly allowed to retransmit, quote, or otherwise use > the contents for non-commercial purposes. This copyright will > expire 5 years after the author's death, or in 30 years, > whichever is longer, unless such a period is in excess of > local copyright law. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/13393D201344655C5B10B6A5= %40%5B192.168.1.50%5D > . > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 ------------------------------ SavedURI :Show URLShow URLSavedURI : SavedURI :Hide URLHide URLSavedURI : https://mail.google.com/_/scs/mail-static/_/js/k=3Dgmail.main.sv.G3GZFwvcni= Q.O/m=3Dm_i,t,it/am=3DfUAcTAoZawdGHAZ2YD-g9N_f7LL4CX7WlSgHQKgABHaCv9kToPiBD= 8qOMw/rt=3Dh/d=3D1/rs=3DAItRSTO5CF1YB_frDRXLXTeUsQ1zItcBvwhttps://mail.goog= le.com/_/scs/mail-static/_/js/k=3Dgmail.main.sv.G3GZFwvcniQ.O/m=3Dm_i,t,it/= am=3DfUAcTAoZawdGHAZ2YD-g9N_f7LL4CX7WlSgHQKgABHaCv9kToPiBD8qOMw/rt=3Dh/d=3D= 1/rs=3DAItRSTO5CF1YB_frDRXLXTeUsQ1zItcBvw ------------------------------ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuSTg2S8f3wVBagmFNnsW%3D_r1hQFWoFumrv4YoDDavgbhw%40mail= .gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e0111d0c84b6def051eaa5c2c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @Daniel Yes I know there are WYSIWYG editors for markdown -- I came across = one when looking in vain for an Android editor with md syntax highlighting = -- but to me that seems like a contradiction in terms. I use md because it = is *not* WYSIWYG, yet easily readable!

@Pablo In my expe= rience there are people who are comfortable with WYSIWYG and people who are= not. The latter grasp markdown immediately, while the former are as annoye= d by markup as the latter are by WYSIWYG. I tried to set things up so that = my son, who quite understandably was annoyed by htm,l could edit details on= his company website in markdown, but he found that equally annoying, so he= leaves all the actual editing to me. By contrast the first thing I do when= getting a manuscript as a .doc(x) file, which is most of the time, is to c= onvert it to markdown. I even wrote a Perl program to convert styled spans = in html exported by LibreOffice into em, strong etc. which I so far still= =C2=A0prefer to pandoc's .docx reader. Clients mostly care about gettin= g a readable=C2=A0translated/edited PDF/.doc(x)/RTF/LaTeX document back, no= t how I made it. This doesn't mean I never have to work in WYSIWYG but = I do my best to avoid it for actual text work since for some reason those s= tyling buttons are terribly distracting! :-)

/bpj<= span>

m=C3=A5ndag 31 augusti 2015 skrev Daniel Staal <DStaal-Jdbf3xiKgS8@public.gmane.org>:
--As of August 31, 2015 8:12:10 PM +0200, Pablo Rodr=C3=ADgue= z is alleged to have said:

On 08/31/2015 10:57 AM, BP Jonsson wrote:
While I share your (Pablo's) irritation over the {X,HT}ML syntax for divs and spans every bit I think it is important not to confuse that
issue with the any questions about the uses of divs or spans, which are
orthogonal.

Many thanks for your reply, BPJ.

Sorry, but I gave up trying to explain pandoc (or Markdown) to anyone. I was writing a manual in Spanish, but I=E2=80=99m afraid Markdown is too
complicated to explain to people with no background in text tagging.

Probably I=E2=80=99m wrong in expecting that pandoc could replace word
proccessing programs for average users.

Probably true.=C2=A0 There are Markdown editors that aim for that market, b= ut pandoc isn't an editor.=C2=A0 It's a converter.=C2=A0 The editor= s give you a nice WYSWYG interface, or at least something close, and give e= asy shortcuts to common markup.

In principle we could use any markup to signal "the
references go here", but the idea that that markup should be independe= nt
both of any particular place in the document and of the header (if any!) used for the references section is a sound one, and the marked div
solution is a good one, semantically speaking.

I didn=E2=80=99t eman that the the solution was wrong semantically speaking= .

My point is that this would be harder to understand for average people.
Since we already have section divisions, using them to implement
bibliographies placing would be easier to be understood by a new user.

Except the only actual section divisions we have are divs.=C2=A0 Headers do= n't create new sections.=C2=A0 (Well, there is an option to make them c= reate such, but semantically and under normal use I've often seen heade= rs within a section; sub-sections, or just breaking up the flow of the text= .)=C2=A0 They often are placed at the start of new sections, but not always= .

Extra paragraphs could be added as explained. And hidding a title should be an easy task.

Yes, but it'd be confusing, and inconsistent.=C2=A0 ;)=C2=A0 This '= visible' marker (which makes things *more* visible) in one case would n= ow hide the text instead.=C2=A0 Depending on what the text was, basically.= =C2=A0 Which will eventually surprise someone.

(And note that with the above mentioned option to make headers automaticall= y create divs, you could still use your version of the markup.)

The problem I see with Markdown (and I=E2=80=99m afraid CommonMark doesn=E2= =80=99t
solve it) is that markup is inconsistent for ordinary people.

The simplest rule: paragraphs are formed by consecutive non-empty lines. Only a blank line builds a new paragraph. Well, and what happens with
titles?

I honestly think you're over-thinking this.

Titles aren't paragraphs; they are a single line of text.=C2=A0 *Don= 9;t* try to explain them in terms of paragraphs.=C2=A0 Simply say that a ti= tles are a single line of text marked up in one of the ways that denotes a = title.

A paragraph is any consecutive non-empty lines that *aren't* something = else.=C2=A0 That 'something else' could be a title, or a list, or a= table, or a code block, or a line block, or a quote block, or anything els= e that I'm missing or gets implemented in the future.=C2=A0 (Some of wh= ich can contain paragraphs, of course.)=C2=A0 We usually shorten it because= people tend to understand 'this is a paragraph, and this is how you do= $X instead of a paragraph' quite well.

It is a consistent rule for computers (in fact they are two). But The
previous rule isn=E2=80=99t consistent for persons.

I just listed seven.=C2=A0 ;)=C2=A0 Or one, depending on how you look at it= .

And that's really my point: You're looking at it as seven, when rea= lly it's the one.=C2=A0 You're the one trying to go top-down and de= fine it the complicated way.

Sorry, this is the reason I want to use pandoc, but I won=E2=80=99t try to<= br> explain unnecessarily complicated exceptions.

But the exceptions are the rule: A paragraph is what isn't something el= se. *Everything* is an exception.=C2=A0 And that's really what makes Ma= rkdown and CommonMark clean: You only mark up what needs to be differentiat= ed from the main text.

In the end, if you don't want exceptions, you end up with something lik= e XML, which has a lot of visual noise because *everything* has to be cover= ed in the 'normal' case.

Daniel T. Staal

---------------------------------------------------------------
This email copyright the author.=C2=A0 Unless otherwise noted, you
are expressly allowed to retransmit, quote, or otherwise use
the contents for non-commercial purposes.=C2=A0 This copyright will
expire 5 years after the author's death, or in 30 years,
whichever is longer, unless such a period is in excess of
local copyright law.
---------------------------------------------------------------

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org= .
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/13393D2013= 44655C5B10B6A5%40%5B192.168.1.50%5D.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;pandoc-discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pand= oc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://group= s.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuSTg2S8f3wVBagmFNnsW%3D_r1hQFWoFu= mrv4YoDDavgbhw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--089e0111d0c84b6def051eaa5c2c--