From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/16198 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: BP Jonsson Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Building pandoc "ecosystems": package manger, "central gallery", "wikibook", etc.? Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 11:28:17 +0100 Message-ID: References: <01d303b0-f034-4065-98ca-f27314a9e308@googlegroups.com> <4a63c5a3-5f64-4df7-97ca-224ae766a293@googlegroups.com> <1a0e355a-9093-40dd-897a-f97699a5121f@googlegroups.com> <871sy8gypu.fsf@espresso.zeitkraut.de> <085c9a3a-5370-4e6a-b943-5bff6d6d5a57@googlegroups.com> <87shqnfw0p.fsf@espresso.zeitkraut.de> <20161120090756.GA52582@Johns-MBP.home> <06a9ff7a-3dc9-44c0-b4c9-9a7117371481@googlegroups.com> <2fdfe79c-5c05-4996-a2f1-f427fa2e3ade@googlegroups.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045cc822524413054245d03c X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1480242502 24540 195.159.176.226 (27 Nov 2016 10:28:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 10:28:22 +0000 (UTC) To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDIY76M674FRBQ7K5LAQKGQEYRXDDDY-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Sun Nov 27 11:28:17 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-pg0-f58.google.com ([74.125.83.58]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cAwgy-0005KE-8H for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 11:28:17 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-pg0-f58.google.com with SMTP id x23sf35141173pgx.1 for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=BXivOGsHIH3p/wSpO3DLrjmcwxVcWxJWajHiLxKg+Ik=; b=iq8Y4P3XM0mt1AzAnvCK1q5ULBUjbWwiQj1dIHR6BUeTgeeNNKg/FFDtlweF89xFi1 JUnIh8fkDQJiz14VamQXyCVSxlH2WKfJmmY+yu3ROFPogCFC6CoxlQbMFaZeSF+ViU6q gcR9BRN7shNDHT4nEdEY3NbqwbQj8/1XEPpXYMDHVaNb/GYwDcIJXyKtNBU3RRqDKWoH LylRWWsGBzv/+pW5FjQNoZSfXeNJlYWTBOEhZj5DRgKJpV8sPFz8wW3VQK2yAd4dYlNK oYHyJ3KxTFdP1d3m83ndCApe9IZLKx41r+Rl2toduEgbk1Fo9nI5iF9Dw1OevSvaja6M lw0w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=BXivOGsHIH3p/wSpO3DLrjmcwxVcWxJWajHiLxKg+Ik=; b=Mv8QuJkrCLiFIuXXiHhMoJpVMAVIkmCwWlzlJByMIA53l0Ag/hIDVgeajL69Afobyb 1g3rn8hoPRTgErxkkU5fiRJS5KXSNMd7aTt2zptDkUaRpB69yTecc0ZQNk68/kvwFydJ BX4FKqj3cl4QOl2u9mrF1GZT0E5a6uy5vbVY6cQLww8q7uJvJHRuER8WpzSfJ5CpAjHP RwKa9RLkgMojVZz4aYAE2yVtSUKDZSvhZTOhbWxwVNg4TuiPyvIXuEjfSx4krzYVDP6T EKBNgepMhA5aJme5Zwzd/puJDG9+pI+ARawybGddeE6Kmvty1ADbrEmDCCwjzNOMG2wo 3stg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=BXivOGsHIH3p/wSpO3DLrjmcwxVcWxJWajHiLxKg+Ik=; b=RvZfourtjDwZd8GnfAijUv1uYoY7hNsvIqENY2JJeRR4w2ZUNV3asYf0KysYbudj+M 9yN8HWtNc2qLz5bJA8lBqUnIARhkzW+nopTmLAUOVJi34A6whM1x0PLEKC+w8z3p/dVF wcYzk2RnFWK9JnKyTSfPqTCSa0ozmwoRorrrB9y7azL7pLPiZxGjYaQcV3+kTwsyVakh UwsmHhUCNOFcopUdln+7hvo72K3fWiOC2iLeV0KuP9XSjbB9QbqooC4GqFb1TMhjkHVH pXuYTgxFo4vCpqEUNELxmxM6GTJjO/d97I7AsCE3gTLlyyg7lFhfIN9IdashlIKg6wOs V3Zg== Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC01qDSAZhzOz/WWsyQ0BHJEk3spUsvaiCkJPGBQzP0ewczw7QeX9UbNCyn7c9rKYtA== X-Received: by 10.36.124.139 with SMTP id a133mr218979itd.5.1480242499784; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:19 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.36.17.73 with SMTP id 70ls2638573itf.3.gmail; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:19 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.36.225.70 with SMTP id n67mr2430892ith.4.1480242499121; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:19 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m13si1652210itb.3.2016.11.27.02.28.19 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e; Original-Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id j65so186904729iof.0 for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:19 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.36.237.3 with SMTP id r3mr13779010ith.76.1480242498780; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:18 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.107.36.17 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:17 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.107.36.17 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 02:28:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2fdfe79c-5c05-4996-a2f1-f427fa2e3ade-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:16198 Archived-At: --f403045cc822524413054245d03c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 No I meant that I agreed with Jakob's post which I was replying to. Please look at the quoted text. Of course it follows that I think it's unnecessary or even harmful (for the reasons Sergio gave, at least), to embed python. Not that I think that John would want to do that. BTW, to make the embedded Lua interpreter really useful a Lua Unicode/UTF-8 library should also be embedded. Out of the box Lua has no Unicode support at all, which makes it practically worthless for work with most natural languages. /bpj Den 27 nov 2016 00:56 skrev "Kolen Cheung" : > @bpj: do you mean -1? > > Bruce: could you elaborate? > > On one hand, I'm kind of surprised that embedding lua interpreter seems ok > while Python's becomes so not ok... but on the other hand I can see (from > my limited search on how to embed Python) it can increase complexity and > might requires much more time to mantain it (e.g. what if some filters > requires some other libraries not bundled?), and it might set a dangerous > precedence that people will ask for more interpeters (perl, javascript, > etc.). > > Another note is that the original moltivation is for easier filter > distribution, which does not say that "now everyone write your filter in > Python" but "you can write filters in any languages but we included this in > the binary". > > Anyway, from the reaction, what I worry more is not if pandoc will embed > Python ("clearly" it shouldn't and it's really not all that important), > what I worry is how to eventually get to the "lapandoc"/"panfill" thing I > talked about. What I had in mind is that a bunch of fitlers becomes a kind > of "document class", where all filters in a particular class are > (reasonably) expected to be written in 1 language only, but different > classes can be in different language. > > Before I proceed, let's point out that classes like memoir class borrows > ideas from other packages but he wrote his own code. Applying that to the > "lapandoc" concept, it means a filter might be written in any languages, > but when they are put in a class, they will be modified/rewritten in *a* > certain language. > > The current problem of pandoc is, there's no *a* language (besides lua, > which is not for filter for the moment). So that a pandoc with "document > classes"/"a bunch of filters" cannot be self contained. > > The problem of not being self-contained when filters is involved means > that using filters can never break the barriers of "personal use"/"hacking > pandoc documents". I'm sure one might think given instructions on > installing all the dependencies will be enough. It's not (at least in my > real world situation: I even wrote a script that auto-install everything, > in the end, I am the one who ran the script on my colleage's computer.). An > analogy will be LaTeX again, for many people including me, the first time > they use LaTeX is to install a *big* binary and call it for a day. For > first time users, they might have never visited command lines, don't know > how to use tlmgr, etc. > > To conclude, I guess the biggest question for me is if there's a possible > way to eventually get to "lapandoc"/"panfill", that laymen can easily use > *some* "document class", and collaborative projects can safely includes > filters in production without worrying any of the potential "content" > contributors cannot install the neccessary component. From today's > reaction, I guess the only path to that is via haskell/lua. Haskell is is > in the list because it seems it is not impossible to modify pandoc's binary > build process to includes some other haskell filters/"document classes" and > call it "lapandoc"/"panfill". > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > msgid/pandoc-discuss/2fdfe79c-5c05-4996-a2f1-f427fa2e3ade% > 40googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuTVjfGBs7H6%2Bm%2BYqerih0XJ53AqXPOiPVe8A4kRSppLTw%40mail.gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f403045cc822524413054245d03c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No I meant that I agreed with Jakob's post which I was r= eplying to. Please look at the quoted text. Of course it follows that I thi= nk it's unnecessary or even harmful (for the reasons Sergio gave, at le= ast), to embed python. Not that I think that John would want to do that.

BTW, to make the embedded Lua interpreter really useful a Lu= a Unicode/UTF-8 library should also be embedded. Out of the box Lua has no = Unicode support at all, which makes it practically worthless for work with = most natural languages.

/bpj


Den 27 nov 2016 0= 0:56 skrev "Kolen Cheung" <christian.kolen-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>:
@bpj: do you mean -1?

Bruce: could you elaborate?

On one hand, I'm kind of surprised that embedding lua interpreter seems= ok while Python's becomes so not ok... but on the other hand I can see= (from my limited search on how to embed Python) it can increase complexity= and might requires much more time to mantain it (e.g. what if some filters= requires some other libraries not bundled?), and it might set a dangerous = precedence that people will ask for more interpeters (perl, javascript, etc= .).

Another note is that the original moltivation is for easier filter distribu= tion, which does not say that "now everyone write your filter in Pytho= n" but "you can write filters in any languages but we included th= is in the binary".

Anyway, from the reaction, what I worry more is not if pandoc will embed Py= thon ("clearly" it shouldn't and it's really not all that= important), what I worry is how to eventually get to the "lapandoc&qu= ot;/"panfill" thing I talked about. What I had in mind is that a = bunch of fitlers becomes a kind of "document class", where all fi= lters in a particular class are (reasonably) expected to be written in 1 la= nguage only, but different classes can be in different language.

Before I proceed, let's point out that classes like memoir class borrow= s ideas from other packages but he wrote his own code. Applying that to the= "lapandoc" concept, it means a filter might be written in any la= nguages, but when they are put in a class, they will be modified/rewritten = in *a* certain language.

The current problem of pandoc is, there's no *a* language (besides lua,= which is not for filter for the moment). So that a pandoc with "docum= ent classes"/"a bunch of filters" cannot be self contained.<= br>
The problem of not being self-contained when filters is involved means that= using filters can never break the barriers of "personal use"/&qu= ot;hacking pandoc documents". I'm sure one might think given instr= uctions on installing all the dependencies will be enough. It's not (at= least in my real world situation: I even wrote a script that auto-install = everything, in the end, I am the one who ran the script on my colleage'= s computer.). An analogy will be LaTeX again, for many people including me,= the first time they use LaTeX is to install a *big* binary and call it for= a day. For first time users, they might have never visited command lines, = don't know how to use tlmgr, etc.

To conclude, I guess the biggest question for me is if there's a possib= le way to eventually get to "lapandoc"/"panfill", that = laymen can easily use *some* "document class", and collaborative = projects can safely includes filters in production without worrying any of = the potential "content" contributors cannot install the neccessar= y component. From today's reaction, I guess the only path to that is vi= a haskell/lua. Haskell is is in the list because it seems it is not impossi= ble to modify pandoc's binary build process to includes some other hask= ell filters/"document classes" and call it "lapandoc"/&= quot;panfill".

--
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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/2fdfe79c-5c05-4996-a2f1-f427fa2e3ade%40go= oglegroups.com.
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--
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