From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/23283 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Scot Mcphee Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml? Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:58:51 +0200 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e9b4c05908a57a3" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="14954"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, Joseph Reagle Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDTP7RMHTQFRB3NE57VAKGQEBUG5BMQ-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Tue Aug 20 12:58:56 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-yb1-f185.google.com ([209.85.219.185]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1i01qp-0003jE-Ff for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:58:55 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-f185.google.com with SMTP id y9sf4522210ybs.23 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 03:58:55 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; 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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n40si972389ywh.3.2019.08.20.03.58.52 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Aug 2019 03:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of scot.mcphee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::732 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::732; Original-Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id p13so4056385qkg.13 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 03:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a37:a358:: with SMTP id m85mr25825515qke.190.1566298732402; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 03:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:58:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: scot.mcphee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=bflnLr3D; spf=pass (google.com: domain of scot.mcphee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::732 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=scot.mcphee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:23283 Archived-At: --0000000000008e9b4c05908a57a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As someone who has just submitted a PhD in classics & ancient history, which was written using pandoc and tex exclusively, I just want to point out that quoting ancient texts as below (like they are modern translated works) isn=E2=80=99t the proper way to cite or reference them, and so a lot= of the bother can be avoided simply by citing them correctly: 1. Works are referenced using a standard method to reference ancient authors and their works, usually the format from the Oxford Classical Encyclopedia but other standard references are also available. 2. Don=E2=80=99t cite page numbers -- use the reference numbers from one= of the standard critical editions (good translations will have these annotated = in them, e.g. Oxford World Classics editions) 3. Have a separate =E2=80=98ancient bibliography=E2=80=99 section which = shows your sources and their translations (if you aren=E2=80=99t translating it you= rself) e.g. here=E2=80=99s a sample cut-and-paste from my ancient sources *Cic*. (Cicero) *Div*. =E2=80=94 M. Tullius Cicero, Plasberg, O., & Ax, W., (1965)*. De Divinatione, De Fato, Timaeus* (Editio stereo- typa editionis primae (MCMXXXVIII) ed., Scripta quae manserunt omnia; fasc. 46). Stutgardiae: In aedibus B.G. Teubneri. *Dom*. =E2=80=94 M. Tullius Cicero & Peterson, W. (1910). *Orationes. Cum S= enatui Gratias Egit, Cum Populo Gratias Egit, De Domo Sua, De Haruspicum Responso, Pro Sestio, In Vatinium, De Provinciis Consularibus, Pro Balbo* (Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford: The Clarendon Press. *Har. resp.* =E2=80=94 See *Dom*. for source text. *Nat. D*. =E2=80=94 M. Tullius Cicero, Mayor, J. B., & Swainson, J. H. (201= 0). *De Natura Deorum Libri Tres* (Text of Book II. with Critical Notes. (pp. 1-64)). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. *Prov. cons.* =E2=80=94 See *Dom*. for source text. *Rep*. =E2=80=94 M. Tullius Cicero & Powell, J.G.F. (2006). *De Re Publica,= De Legibus, Cato Maior De Senectute, Laelius De Amicitia *(Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press. And from my pandoc/markdown source file, manually typed: *Cic.* ~ (Cicero) ~ *Div.* --- M. Tullius Cicero, Plasberg, O., & Ax, W., (1965). *De Divinatione, De Fato, Timaeus* (Editio stereotypa editionis primae (MCMXXXVIII) ed., Scripta quae manserunt omnia; fasc. 46). Stutgardiae: In aedibus B.G. Teubneri. ~ *Dom.* --- M. Tullius Cicero & Peterson, W. (1910). *Orationes. Cum Senatui Gratias Egit, Cum Populo Gratias Egit, De Domo Sua, De Haruspicum Responso, Pro Sestio, In Vatinium, De Provinciis Consularibus, Pro Balbo* (Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford: The Clarendon Press. ~ *Har. resp.* --- See *Dom.* for source text. ~ *Nat. D.* --- M. Tullius Cicero, Mayor, J. B., & Swainson, J. H. (2010). *De Natura Deorum Libri Tres* (Text of Book II. with Critical Notes. (pp. 1-64)). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ~ *Prov. cons.* --- See *Dom.* for source text. ~ *Rep.* --- M. Tullius Cicero & Powell, J.G.F. (2006). *De Re Publica, De Legibus, Cato Maior De Senectute, Laelius De Amicitia* (Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press. So when I cited a section from one of the above it would be cited as e.g. = =E2=80=9CCic. *Har. resp.* 23.48.=E2=80=9D All my *modern* sources on the other hand were cited with citeproc and managed from a bibtex file, so the footnote that contains the citation referenced above literally looks like this: [^fn02_37]: Cic. *Har. resp.* 23.48. Further discussion in, for example: [@Nice1999 p.272; @Stevenson2015 p.74-75; @Osgood2009 p.330-331; @Sumi2009 p.171-172; @Szemler1971 p.130; @Bell1997 p.11; @Taylor2000 p.16]. It really annoys me to see a reference like, (Cicero 57 B.C.E. p.122). It=E2=80=99s not right, if you have an editor that insists otherwise, that = editor is flat wrong. regards scot -- Scot Mcphee Computer Programmer, Classics PhD. p +61 412 957414 e scot.mcphee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org w http://autonomous.org/ t @scotartt On 17 August 2019 at 03:18:09, Joseph Reagle (joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org) wrote= : I've seen a couple of bugs discussing ranges, multiples, negatives (BCE), and circa, but in playing with a minimal example, I can't figure out the correct format. Is there documentation on this? I can get BCE to work with a negative 'year' integer. But circa... ``` issued: - year: 161 - circa: 1 ``` puts a `-` after AD? ```

  • Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, ed. Maxwell Staniforth (London: Penguin Books, 161AD=E2=80=93).=E2=86=A9=EF=B8=8E

    ``` No idea how to do a range or multiple specification. (I do use 'original-date''year', but chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl doesn't seem to use that...) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/d2ebd6b1-8877-03d7-9ab0-26= 8207fcac79%40reagle.org. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CAFnRE0Sr6xopjG7cwCACfR%2Bx3Rgok68Y0cQu7Xpajg1yF%2BVyLg%40ma= il.gmail.com. --0000000000008e9b4c05908a57a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
    As s= omeone who has just submitted a PhD in classics & ancient history, whic= h was written using pandoc and tex exclusively, I just want to point out th= at quoting ancient texts as below (like they are modern translated works) i= sn=E2=80=99t the proper way to cite or reference them, and so a lot of the = bother can be avoided simply by citing them correctly:
    1. Works are referenced usi= ng a standard method to reference ancient authors and their works, usually = the format from the Oxford Classical Encyclopedia but other standard refere= nces are also available.
    2. Don=E2=80=99t cite page numbers -- use the= reference numbers from one of the standard critical editions (good transla= tions will have these annotated in them, e.g. Oxford World Classics edition= s)
    3. Have a separate =E2=80=98ancient bibliography=E2=80=99 section w= hich shows your sources and their translations (if you aren=E2=80=99t trans= lating it yourself)
    e.g. here=E2=80=99s a sample cut-and-paste from my ancien= t sources

    Cic. (Cicero)

    <= font face=3D"Helvetica">Div. =E2=80= =94 M. Tullius Cicero, Plasberg, O., & Ax, W., (1965). De Divination= e, De Fato, Timaeus (Editio stereo- typa editionis primae (MCMXXXVIII) ed., Scripta quae manserunt omnia; fasc.= 46). Stutgardiae: In aedibus B.G. Teubneri.

    Dom. =E2=80=94 M. Tullius Cicero & Peterson, W. (1910). Orationes. Cum= Senatui Gratias Egit, Cum Populo Gratias Egit, De Domo Sua, De Haruspicum = Responso, Pro Sestio, In Vatinium, De Provinciis Consularibus, Pro Balbo (Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford: The = Clarendon Press.

    Har. r= esp. =E2=80=94 See Dom. fo= r source text.

    Nat. D= . =E2=80=94 M. Tullius Cicero, Ma= yor, J. B., & Swainson, J. H. (2010). De Natura Deorum Libri Tres (Text of Book II. with Critical Notes. (pp. 1-64)). Cambridge: Cambridge Universi= ty Press.

    Prov. = cons. =E2=80=94 See Dom. for source text.

    Rep. =E2=80=94 M. Tullius Cicero & Powell, J.G.F. (2006). De Re Public= a, De Legibus, Cato Maior De Senectute, Laelius De Amicitia (Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Ox= ford, New York: Oxford University Press.=C2=A0

    And from my pandoc/markdown so= urce file, manually typed:

    *Cic.* =C2=A0
    =C2=A0 ~ (Cicero)
    =C2=A0 ~ *D= iv.* --- M. Tullius Cicero, Plasberg, O., & Ax, W., (1965). *De Divinat= ione, De Fato, Timaeus* (Editio stereotypa editionis primae (MCMXXXVIII) ed= ., Scripta quae manserunt omnia; fasc. 46). Stutgardiae: In aedibus B.G. Te= ubneri.
    =C2=A0 ~ *Dom.* --- M. Tullius Cic= ero & Peterson, W. (1910). *Orationes. Cum Senatui Gratias Egit, Cum Po= pulo Gratias Egit, De Domo Sua, De Haruspicum Responso, Pro Sestio, In Vati= nium, De Provinciis Consularibus, Pro Balbo* (Scriptorum classicorum biblio= theca Oxoniensis). Oxford: The Clarendon Press.
    =C2=A0 ~ *Har. resp.* --- See *Dom.* for source text.
    =C2=A0 ~ *Nat. D.* --- M. Tullius Cicero, Mayor, J. B., &am= p; Swainson, J. H. (2010). *De Natura Deorum Libri Tres* (Text of Book II. = with Critical Notes. (pp. 1-64)). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
    =C2=A0 ~ *Prov. cons.* --- See *Dom.* for sou= rce text.
    =C2=A0 ~ *Rep.* --- M. Tullius Ci= cero & Powell, J.G.F. (2006). *De Re Publica, De Legibus, Cato Maior De= Senectute, Laelius De Amicitia* (Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxonie= nsis). Oxford, New York: Oxford University Press.
    =

    So w= hen I cited a section from one of the above it would be cited as e.g. =E2= =80=9CCic. Har. resp. 23.48.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0
    =09 =09 =09

    All my *= modern* sources on the other hand were cited with citeproc and managed from= a bibtex file, so the footnote that contains the citation referenced above= literally looks like this:

    [^fn02_37]: = Cic. *Har. resp.* 23.48. Further discussion in, for example: [@Nice1999 p.2= 72; @Stevenson2015 p.74-75; @Osgood2009 p.330-331; @Sumi2009 p.171-172; @Sz= emler1971 p.130; @Bell1997 p.11; @Taylor2000 p.16].

    =
    It really annoys me to see a ref= erence like, (Cicero 57 B.C.E. p.122).=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s not right, if you= have an editor that insists otherwise, that editor is flat wrong.

    regards
    scot

    --
    Scot Mcphee
    Computer Programmer, Classics PhD.
    p +61 412 957414
    e scot.mcphee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org=
    w=C2=A0http://autonomous.org/
    t @scotartt


    On 17 August 2019 at 03:18:09, Joseph Reagle (joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org) wrote:

    = I've seen a couple of bugs discussing ranges, multiples, negatives (BCE= ), and circa, but in playing with a minimal example, I can't figure out= the correct format. Is there documentation on this?


    I can get BCE to work with a negative 'year' integer.

    But circa...

    ```
    issued:
    - year: 161
    - circa: 1
    ```

    puts a `-` after AD?

    ```
    <li id=3D"fn1" role=3D"doc-endnote"><p>= Marcus Aurelius, <em>Meditations</em>, ed. Maxwell Staniforth (= London: Penguin Books, 161AD=E2=80=93).<a href=3D"#fnref1" cla= ss=3D"footnote-back" role=3D"doc-backlink">=E2=86=A9= =EF=B8=8E</a></p></li>
    ```

    No idea how to do a range or multiple specification. (I do use 'ori= ginal-date''year', but chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl doesn&= #39;t seem to use that...)




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