How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

[Joseph Reagle]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1147 bytes --]

I've seen a couple of bugs discussing ranges, multiples, negatives (BCE), and circa, but in playing with a minimal example, I can't figure out the correct format. Is there documentation on this?


I can get BCE to work with a negative 'year' integer.

But circa...

```
  issued:
    - year: 161
    - circa: 1
```

 puts a `-` after AD?

```
<li id="fn1" role="doc-endnote"><p>Marcus Aurelius, <em>Meditations</em>, ed. Maxwell Staniforth (London: Penguin Books, 161AD–).<a href="#fnref1" class="footnote-back" role="doc-backlink">↩︎</a></p></li>
```

No idea how to do a range or multiple specification. (I do use 'original-date''year', but chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl doesn't seem to use that...)




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[-- Attachment #2: test.md --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 438 bytes --]

---
author: Joseph Reagle 
title: "Test"
suppress-bibliography: true
...

test of [@Aurelius2005mns]

---
references:
- id: Aurelius2005mns
  type: book
  publisher-place: "London"
  author:
  - family: "Aurelius"
    given: "Marcus"
  issued:
    - year: 161
    - circa: 1
  editor:
  - family: "Staniforth"
    given: "Maxwell"
  ISBN: "9780143036272"
  publisher: "Penguin Books"
  title: "Meditations"
...

Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

The correct format for ranges (and original-date) is this:

---
references:
- id: item1
  type: book
  author:
  - family: Doe
    given: John
  issued:
  - year: 2007
    month: 1
    day: 31
  - year: 2008
    month: 12
    day: 31
  original-date:
  - year: 1807
    month: 1
    day: 31
  - year: 1808
    month: 12
    day: 31
  title: Title
  language: en-US
...


As to chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl, please file a bug report at https://forums.zotero.org/discussions. (Should be fixed to output original-date, just like chicago-author-date.csl does already.)

As to circa, nothing off the top of my head, but I’ll have a closer look.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, August 16, 2019 5:17 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I've seen a couple of bugs discussing ranges, multiples, negatives (BCE), and circa, but in playing with a minimal example, I can't figure out the correct format. Is there documentation on this?
>
> I can get BCE to work with a negative 'year' integer.
>
> But circa...
>
>       issued:
>         - year: 161
>         - circa: 1
>
>
> puts a`-` after AD?
>
>     <li id="fn1" role="doc-endnote"><p>Marcus Aurelius, <em>Meditations</em>, ed. Maxwell Staniforth (London: Penguin Books, 161AD–).<a href="#fnref1" class="footnote-back" role="doc-backlink">↩︎</a></p></li>
>
>
>
> No idea how to do a range or multiple specification. (I do use 'original-date''year', but chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl doesn't seem to use that...)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

The correct format for “circa” is:

---
references:
- id: item1
  type: book
  author:
  - family: Doe
    given: John
  issued:
  - year: 2007
    month: 1
    day: 31
    circa: true
  original-date:
  - year: 1807
    month: 1
    day: 31
  - year: 1808
    month: 12
    day: 31
    circa: true
  title: Title
  language: en-US
...


However, while apa.csl correctly renders


Doe ([ca. 1807–1808]/[ca. 2007])

Doe, J. [ca. 2007]. _Title_. [Original work published ca. 1807–1808]


chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl outputs the following (confusing “circa” and “uncertain” [note: there are no provisions for the latter in the CSL specs]):


John Doe[1]

Doe, John. _Title_, [2007?].

[1] _Title_, [2007?].


and chicago-author-date.csl renders nothing w.r.t. to “circa” at all:


Doe ([1807–1808] 2007)

Doe, John. (1807–1808) 2007. _Title_.


Concerning the latter two I’d recommend, again, filing a bug report at https://forums.zotero.org/discussions.



‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, August 16, 2019 5:17 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I've seen a couple of bugs discussing ranges, multiples, negatives (BCE), and circa, but in playing with a minimal example, I can't figure out the correct format. Is there documentation on this?
>
> I can get BCE to work with a negative 'year' integer.
>
> But circa...
>
>       issued:
>         - year: 161
>         - circa: 1
>
>
> puts a`-` after AD?
>
>     <li id="fn1" role="doc-endnote"><p>Marcus Aurelius, <em>Meditations</em>, ed. Maxwell Staniforth (London: Penguin Books, 161AD–).<a href="#fnref1" class="footnote-back" role="doc-backlink">↩︎</a></p></li>
>
>
>
> No idea how to do a range or multiple specification. (I do use 'original-date''year', but chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl doesn't seem to use that...)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/d2ebd6b1-8877-03d7-9ab0-268207fcac79%40reagle.org.


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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

P.S.:

While ISO8601 (and, e.g., biblatex) treat “circa” and “uncertain” as distinct concepts, CSL conflates them (“Approximate dates test “true” for the is-uncertain-date conditional”, http://docs.citationstyles.org/en/1.0.1/specification.html#approximate-dates).

And CMOS 17e, 14.145, “No date of publication” recommends:

“Edinburgh, [1750?]” or “Edinburgh, n.d., ca. 1750”

... so the behaviour of chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl can’t really be described as a bug (though I’m not happy with this either).


‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, August 16, 2019 5:17 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I've seen a couple of bugs discussing ranges, multiples, negatives (BCE), and circa, but in playing with a minimal example, I can't figure out the correct format. Is there documentation on this?
>
> I can get BCE to work with a negative 'year' integer.
>
> But circa...
>
>       issued:
>         - year: 161
>         - circa: 1
>
>
> puts a`-` after AD?
>
>     <li id="fn1" role="doc-endnote"><p>Marcus Aurelius, <em>Meditations</em>, ed. Maxwell Staniforth (London: Penguin Books, 161AD–).<a href="#fnref1" class="footnote-back" role="doc-backlink">↩︎</a></p></li>
>
>
>
> No idea how to do a range or multiple specification. (I do use 'original-date''year', but chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl doesn't seem to use that...)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/d2ebd6b1-8877-03d7-9ab0-268207fcac79%40reagle.org.


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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

[Joseph Reagle]

On 8/18/19 7:22 AM, 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss wrote:
>   - year: 2007
>     month: 1
>     day: 31
>     circa: true

Is this documented anywhere? I was reading these issues and '1' was used instead of 'true' -- which led to problems.

	https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/103

	https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/240

> Concerning the latter two I’d recommend, again, filing a bug report
> at https://forums.zotero.org/discussions.

Why Zotero discussions rather than CSL issues?

  https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/issues

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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

> Is this documented anywhere?

Actually, I don’t think so. There’s some documentation on CSL JSON dates (https://citeproc-js.readthedocs.io/en/latest/csl-json/markup.html#date-fields), but nothing I’m aware of on CSL YAML date syntax - which is in part different from CSL JSON’s.

I really wish both CSL JSON and CSL YAML were using a fully standardized date format such as ISO8601/EDTF - it would make things so much easier.

Fortunately, biblatex does use ISO8601/EDTF, so if in doubt, you can always put together a minimal biblatex record, run it through `pandoc-citeproc -y` and inspect the output.

> Why Zotero discussions rather than CSL issues?

This at first appeared strange to me as well, but while bug reports at https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/issues eventually will be taken note of, too, de facto it is the Zotero forum where the vast majority of CSL style file issues are being reported and discussed.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Monday, August 19, 2019 2:10 PM, Joseph Reagle <joseph-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On 8/18/19 7:22 AM, 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss wrote:
>
> > -   year: 2007
> >     month: 1
> >     day: 31
> >     circa: true
> >
>
> Is this documented anywhere? I was reading these issues and '1' was used instead of 'true' -- which led to problems.
>
> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/103
>
> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/240
>
> > Concerning the latter two I’d recommend, again, filing a bug report
> > at https://forums.zotero.org/discussions.
>
> Why Zotero discussions rather than CSL issues?
>
> https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/issues
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/5361bd16-d212-c418-2e2b-1e58423947fa%40reagle.org.


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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

As to why `circa: 1` no longer works, I seem to recall that at some point pandoc-citeproc started applying the YAML specs more strictly, and these don’t allow 1/0 as Boolean values. (See http://yaml.org/type/bool.html.)

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Monday, August 19, 2019 8:01 PM, 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> > Is this documented anywhere?
>
> Actually, I don’t think so. There’s some documentation on CSL JSON dates (https://citeproc-js.readthedocs.io/en/latest/csl-json/markup.html#date-fields), but nothing I’m aware of on CSL YAML date syntax - which is in part different from CSL JSON’s.
>
> I really wish both CSL JSON and CSL YAML were using a fully standardized date format such as ISO8601/EDTF - it would make things so much easier.
>
> Fortunately, biblatex does use ISO8601/EDTF, so if in doubt, you can always put together a minimal biblatex record, run it through `pandoc-citeproc -y` and inspect the output.
>
> > Why Zotero discussions rather than CSL issues?
>
> This at first appeared strange to me as well, but while bug reports athttps://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/issues eventually will be taken note of, too, de facto it is the Zotero forum where the vast majority of CSL style file issues are being reported and discussed.
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Monday, August 19, 2019 2:10 PM, Joseph Reagle joseph-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org wrote:
>
> > On 8/18/19 7:22 AM, 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss wrote:
> >
> > > -   year: 2007
> > >     month: 1
> > >     day: 31
> > >     circa: true
> > >
> >
> > Is this documented anywhere? I was reading these issues and '1' was used instead of 'true' -- which led to problems.
> > https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/103
> > https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/240
> >
> > > Concerning the latter two I’d recommend, again, filing a bug report
> > > at https://forums.zotero.org/discussions.
> >
> > Why Zotero discussions rather than CSL issues?
> > https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/issues
> >
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/5361bd16-d212-c418-2e2b-1e58423947fa%40reagle.org.
>
> --
>
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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

[Scot Mcphee]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5790 bytes --]

As someone who has just submitted a PhD in classics & ancient history,
which was written using pandoc and tex exclusively, I just want to point
out that quoting ancient texts as below (like they are modern translated
works) isn’t the proper way to cite or reference them, and so a lot of the
bother can be avoided simply by citing them correctly:

   1. Works are referenced using a standard method to reference ancient
   authors and their works, usually the format from the Oxford Classical
   Encyclopedia but other standard references are also available.
   2. Don’t cite page numbers -- use the reference numbers from one of the
   standard critical editions (good translations will have these annotated in
   them, e.g. Oxford World Classics editions)
   3. Have a separate ‘ancient bibliography’ section which shows your
   sources and their translations (if you aren’t translating it yourself)

e.g. here’s a sample cut-and-paste from my ancient sources

*Cic*. (Cicero)

*Div*. — M. Tullius Cicero, Plasberg, O., & Ax, W., (1965)*. De
Divinatione, De Fato, Timaeus* (Editio stereo- typa editionis primae
(MCMXXXVIII) ed., Scripta quae manserunt omnia; fasc. 46). Stutgardiae: In
aedibus B.G. Teubneri.

*Dom*. — M. Tullius Cicero & Peterson, W. (1910). *Orationes. Cum Senatui
Gratias Egit, Cum Populo Gratias Egit, De Domo Sua, De Haruspicum Responso,
Pro Sestio, In Vatinium, De Provinciis Consularibus, Pro Balbo* (Scriptorum
classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford: The Clarendon Press.

*Har. resp.* — See *Dom*. for source text.

*Nat. D*. — M. Tullius Cicero, Mayor, J. B., & Swainson, J. H. (2010). *De
Natura Deorum Libri Tres* (Text of Book II. with Critical Notes. (pp.
1-64)). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

*Prov. cons.* — See *Dom*. for source text.

*Rep*. — M. Tullius Cicero & Powell, J.G.F. (2006). *De Re Publica, De
Legibus, Cato Maior De Senectute, Laelius De Amicitia *(Scriptorum
classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford, New York: Oxford University
Press.

And from my pandoc/markdown source file, manually typed:

*Cic.*
  ~ (Cicero)
  ~ *Div.* --- M. Tullius Cicero, Plasberg, O., & Ax, W., (1965). *De
Divinatione, De Fato, Timaeus* (Editio stereotypa editionis primae
(MCMXXXVIII) ed., Scripta quae manserunt omnia; fasc. 46). Stutgardiae: In
aedibus B.G. Teubneri.
  ~ *Dom.* --- M. Tullius Cicero & Peterson, W. (1910). *Orationes. Cum
Senatui Gratias Egit, Cum Populo Gratias Egit, De Domo Sua, De Haruspicum
Responso, Pro Sestio, In Vatinium, De Provinciis Consularibus, Pro Balbo*
(Scriptorum classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford: The Clarendon
Press.
  ~ *Har. resp.* --- See *Dom.* for source text.
  ~ *Nat. D.* --- M. Tullius Cicero, Mayor, J. B., & Swainson, J. H.
(2010). *De Natura Deorum Libri Tres* (Text of Book II. with Critical
Notes. (pp. 1-64)). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
  ~ *Prov. cons.* --- See *Dom.* for source text.
  ~ *Rep.* --- M. Tullius Cicero & Powell, J.G.F. (2006). *De Re Publica,
De Legibus, Cato Maior De Senectute, Laelius De Amicitia* (Scriptorum
classicorum bibliotheca Oxoniensis). Oxford, New York: Oxford University
Press.


So when I cited a section from one of the above it would be cited as e.g. “Cic.
*Har. resp.* 23.48.”

All my *modern* sources on the other hand were cited with citeproc and
managed from a bibtex file, so the footnote that contains the citation
referenced above literally looks like this:

[^fn02_37]: Cic. *Har. resp.* 23.48. Further discussion in, for example:
[@Nice1999 p.272; @Stevenson2015 p.74-75; @Osgood2009 p.330-331; @Sumi2009
p.171-172; @Szemler1971 p.130; @Bell1997 p.11; @Taylor2000 p.16].

It really annoys me to see a reference like, (Cicero 57 B.C.E. p.122).
It’s not right, if you have an editor that insists otherwise, that editor
is flat wrong.

regards
scot

--
Scot Mcphee
Computer Programmer, Classics PhD.
p +61 412 957414
e scot.mcphee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
w http://autonomous.org/
t @scotartt



On 17 August 2019 at 03:18:09, Joseph Reagle (joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org) wrote:

I've seen a couple of bugs discussing ranges, multiples, negatives (BCE),
and circa, but in playing with a minimal example, I can't figure out the
correct format. Is there documentation on this?


I can get BCE to work with a negative 'year' integer.

But circa...

```
issued:
- year: 161
- circa: 1
```

puts a `-` after AD?

```
<li id="fn1" role="doc-endnote"><p>Marcus Aurelius, <em>Meditations</em>,
ed. Maxwell Staniforth (London: Penguin Books, 161AD–).<a href="#fnref1"
class="footnote-back" role="doc-backlink">↩︎</a></p></li>
```

No idea how to do a range or multiple specification. (I do use
'original-date''year', but chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl doesn't seem
to use that...)




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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

[Joseph Reagle]

On 8/20/19 6:58 AM, Scot Mcphee wrote:
> It really annoys me to see a reference like, (Cicero 57 B.C.E.
> p.122).  It’s not right, if you have an editor that insists
> otherwise, that editor is flat wrong.

Hello Scot, that was a minimal-working toy example for the purpose of discussing pandoc dates.


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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

[Scot Mcphee]

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On 20 August 2019 at 22:12:03, Joseph Reagle (joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org) wrote:


On 8/20/19 6:58 AM, Scot Mcphee wrote:
> It really annoys me to see a reference like, (Cicero 57 B.C.E.
> p.122). It’s not right, if you have an editor that insists
> otherwise, that editor is flat wrong.

Hello Scot, that was a minimal-working toy example for the purpose of
discussing pandoc dates.


Oh, sure, but for the purposes of citation, B.C.E. dates aren’t necessary ;)

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Re: How to represent circa and BCE in yaml?

[Joseph Reagle]

On 8/18/19 7:22 AM, 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss wrote:
> chicago-fullnote-bibliography.csl outputs the following (confusing
> “circa” and “uncertain” [note: there are no provisions for the latter
> in the CSL specs]):

I'm not getting any indication of circa in the following example:

  https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/issues/4262#issuecomment-523135925
 

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