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[2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bg1-20020a05600c3c8100b003fc39e1582fsi179451wmb.1.2023.10.26.00.42.20 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of guillaume.dehaene-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::133; Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507b96095abso775268e87.3 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:42:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a19:6759:0:b0:507:ab66:f118 with SMTP id e25-20020a196759000000b00507ab66f118mr10443686lfj.68.1698306139382; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 00:42:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <80b20bbf-1f3f-4473-9d0d-5017ce7a1baen-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: guillaume.dehaene-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=QTjJ6r3q; spf=pass (google.com: domain of guillaume.dehaene-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guillaume.dehaene-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:33233 Archived-At: --000000000000287472060899b653 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Fritz, you make good points. (NB: are you aware of the typst project? It's a very different markup, but it does offer some ideas of nesting that you might find appealing; it's also supported in pandoc) I agree that pandoc markdown goes beyond the initial markdown "manifesto" and introduces additional complexity But I'm not sure if your proposal: 1. Meshes well with pandoc markdown structures: 1. I'm worried about conflicts / confusion with the html syntax {#id .class key=3Dfoo} 2. I'm worried that any nesting constructs would overlap with the div syntax: as a user, it might be hard to figure out exactly the intended use cases for both as a strong believer in python, let me quote Guido Van Rossum There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. 1. Meshes well with the fundamentals of a markup language 1. Can we make wrapping extremely flexible (I think that's what you want)? If so, isn't that going to cause issues for the wrapped content and the "wrappee" content? can we put arbitrary marks on the wrapped content (for italics, etc)? 2. If we are restricted somehow, what is the restriction? is it obvious to the user? To be clear, it's really good to think about these ideas, and I believe that there is potential here to construct an improved language but maybe it needs to diverge from pandoc markdown to get there I'd be interested to hear your future thoughts on this Best Guillaume Le jeu. 26 oct. 2023 =C3=A0 08:36, Fritz Fritzy a =C3=A9crit : > Thanks for the answer! > > RE nesting: > I mean things like the use of asterisk inside emphasis/bold spans, or the > different ways paragraphs/lists/quotes/pre blocks work together wrt > indentation and newlines. > I understand that when one knows the parsing rules, it's probably always > doable to make them do what one wants, but personally I often get them > wrong. > > RE markdown's design: > As far as I can tell, markdown has grown way farther than those initial > goals, and is now used for more than simple email-like content. > Looking at all the different extensions defined and e.g. provided by > pandoc, I believ that ease of readability has been already left out: one > has to know the semantics of footnotes, custom spans, custom divs, > attribute blocks already to know how to read them. > Obviously, adding yet another new syntax construct can be seen as just > adding to the already present overhead, but it seems to me like: > > 1. It's easy to reason about, in that nesting is natural to > understand, and its parsing rules being (close to?) context free makes > figuring out how to make it work easier. > 2. It would be enough to replace/cover quite a few of the already > present constructs (e.g. all the divs and spans, and maybe also attrib= ute > blocks for titles?), thus reducing the cognitive cost both for writing= and > reading markdown. > 3. On a similar note, it would mean that e.g. when writing things like > 1. emphasized text containing asterisks, one could just start with > *{}*, and not have to fear that the emphasis gets dropped. > 2. any kind of block, say a list item, or a quote block, one could > use braces again to reset the indentation to any value we like. > > In short, it seems to me that it's a simple enough, orthogonal and rather > powerful syntax that doesn't _have_ to be used, but makes writing complex > documents that much easier. > > I understand that you and many people have probably spent way more time > thinking about this than I have, and won't try to push my point further i= f > it hasn't been in any way convincing so far :) > > Thanks for your time, and for pandoc, which has already proven incredibly > useful to me! > > On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 2:58:32=E2=80=AFPM UTC John MacFarlane = wrote: > >> >> >> > On Oct 24, 2023, at 11:06 PM, Fritz Fritzy >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > Using markdown, I've often been frustrated by >> > >> > =E2=80=A2 Its flat/non-recursive/non-nested nature, by which I mean th= at you >> mostly cannot write "arbitrary" markdown inside most elements, and if yo= u >> can, you have to be very careful with whitespaces/indentation/etc. >> >> >> I'm not sure what you mean: generally you can nest things, you just have >> to pay attention to the syntax. Examples? >> >> >> > =E2=80=A2 The impossibility to easily interlink to arbitrary parts of = the >> document. >> > To solve both issues, I'd like to propose an extension that allows >> "simply" using braces (or some other punctuation pair) to allow nesting, >> with an option to tag/add attributes to the contents like that. >> >> >> I think this goes against the spirit of Markdown, which prioritizes >> source readability rather than easy writeability. >> >> "The overriding design goal for Markdown=E2=80=99s formatting syntax is = to make >> it as readable as possible. The idea is that a Markdown- formatted docum= ent >> should be publishable as-is, as plain text, without looking like it=E2= =80=99s been >> marked up with tags or formatting instructions." ( >> http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/) >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/80b20bbf-1f3f-4473-9d0d-= 5017ce7a1baen%40googlegroups.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CAKOoOVWTtzokYLhLNdd5C67_FVor2RREFebCTA73s4jb76_Zwg%40mail.g= mail.com. --000000000000287472060899b653 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,

Fritz, you make good points.=
(NB: are you aware of the typst=C2=A0project? It's a very different= markup, but it does offer some ideas of nesting that you might find appeal= ing; it's also supported in pandoc)

I agree that pandoc markdown= goes beyond the initial markdown "manifesto"=C2=A0 and introduce= s additional complexity
But I'm not sure if your proposal:
  1. Meshes well with pandoc markdown structures:
    1. I'm w= orried about conflicts / confusion with the html syntax {#id .class key=3Df= oo}
    2. I'm worried that any nesting constructs would overlap with = the div syntax:
      as a user, it might be hard to figure out exactly the in= tended use cases for both
      as a strong believer in python, let me quote G= uido Van Rossum
Th= ere should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
  1. Meshes well with the fundamentals of a markup language
  2. Can we make=C2=A0wrapping extremely flexible (I think that's what = you want)?
    If so, isn't=C2=A0that going to cause issues for the wrap= ped=C2=A0content and the=C2=A0"wrappee" content?
    can we put ar= bitrary=C2=A0marks on the wrapped content (for italics, etc)?
  3. If we= are restricted somehow, what is the restriction? is it obvious to the user= ?
To be clear, it's really good to think about these= ideas, and I believe that there is potential here to construct an improved= language
but maybe it needs to diverge from pandoc markdown to g= et there

I'd be interested to hear your future thoughts on this<= /div>

Best
Guillaume

=
Le=C2=A0je= u. 26 oct. 2023 =C3=A0=C2=A008:36, Fritz Fritzy <emile.valjean-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> a =C3= =A9crit=C2=A0:
<= div>Thanks for the answer!

RE nesting:
<= div>I mean things like the use of asterisk inside emphasis/bold spans, or t= he different ways paragraphs/lists/quotes/pre blocks work together wrt inde= ntation and newlines.
I understand that when one knows the parsin= g rules, it's probably always doable to make them do what one wants, bu= t personally I often get them wrong.

RE markdo= wn's design:
As far as I can tell, markdown has grown wa= y farther than those initial goals, and is now used for more than simple em= ail-like content.
Looking at all the different extensions defined= and e.g. provided by pandoc, I believ that ease of readability has been al= ready left out: one has to know the semantics of footnotes, custom spans, c= ustom divs, attribute blocks already to know how to read them.
Ob= viously, adding yet another new syntax construct can be seen as just adding= to the already present overhead, but it seems to me like:
    It's easy to reason about, in that nesting is natural to understand, = and its parsing rules being (close to?) context free makes figuring out how= to make it work easier.
  1. It would be enough to replace/cover quite = a few of the already present constructs (e.g. all the divs and spans, and m= aybe also attribute blocks for titles?), thus reducing the cognitive cost b= oth for writing and reading markdown.
  2. On a similar note, it would m= ean that e.g. when writing things like=C2=A0
    1. emphasized text contain= ing asterisks, one could just start with *{}*, and not have to fear that th= e emphasis gets dropped.
    2. any kind of block, say a list item, or a q= uote block, one could use braces again to reset the indentation to any valu= e we like.
In short, it seems to me that = it's a simple enough, orthogonal and rather powerful syntax that doesn&= #39;t _have_ to be used, but makes writing complex documents that much easi= er.

I understand that you and many people have pro= bably spent way more time thinking about this than I have, and won't tr= y to push my point further if it hasn't been in any way convincing so f= ar :)

Thanks for your time, and for pandoc, which = has already proven incredibly useful to me!

On Wednesday, Oc= tober 25, 2023 at 2:58:32=E2=80=AFPM UTC John MacFarlane wrote:


> On Oct 24, 2023, at 11:06 PM, Fritz Fritzy <emile....-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Using markdown, I've often been frustrated by
>=20
> =E2=80=A2 Its flat/non-recursive/non-nested nature, by which I me= an that you mostly cannot write "arbitrary" markdown inside most = elements, and if you can, you have to be very careful with whitespaces/inde= ntation/etc.


I'm not sure what you mean: generally you can nest things, you just= have to pay attention to the syntax. Examples?


> =E2=80=A2 The impossibility to easily interlink to arbitrary part= s of the document.
> To solve both issues, I'd like to propose an extension that al= lows "simply" using braces (or some other punctuation pair) to al= low nesting, with an option to tag/add attributes to the contents like that= .


I think this goes against the spirit of Markdown, which prioritizes sou= rce readability rather than easy writeability.

"The overriding design goal for Markdown=E2=80=99s formatting synt= ax is to make it as readable as possible. The idea is that a Markdown- form= atted document should be publishable as-is, as plain text, without looking = like it=E2=80=99s been marked up with tags or formatting instructions."= ; (http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/)


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