From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/30585 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Beni Cherniavsky-Paskin Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: History of the math syntax Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 14:35:13 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87pmk88xxr.fsf@zeitkraut.de> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f2329b05df6fe2a7" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33599"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCXKJ7VLTEEBB77ZTWKAMGQEWWXQVNY-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Fri May 20 13:35:33 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-lf1-f63.google.com ([209.85.167.63]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ns0up-0008Wr-Q9 for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; 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[2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bp22-20020a056512159600b004720a623d80si271702lfb.7.2022.05.20.04.35.26 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 May 2022 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of beni.cherniavsky-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12f; Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id bq30so13858455lfb.3 for ; Fri, 20 May 2022 04:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4e15:0:b0:473:c4c2:dc0f with SMTP id e21-20020ac24e15000000b00473c4c2dc0fmr6521236lfr.13.1653046525439; Fri, 20 May 2022 04:35:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87pmk88xxr.fsf-9EawChwDxG8hFhg+JK9F0w@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: beni.cherniavsky-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=TQ7ZuwSY; spf=pass (google.com: domain of beni.cherniavsky-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::12f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=beni.cherniavsky-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:30585 Archived-At: --000000000000f2329b05df6fe2a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [I'm only familiar with these projects after they existed, happy to be corrected if my reconstruction is wrong] I _suspect_ MultiMarkdown was the first. It started out as a fork of Gruber's Markdown.pl, and IIRC the whole point of "multi" in the name was the novelty (at least in context of markdown) of having multiple output formats, including LaTeX. (googling...) See: https://github.com/fletcher/MultiMarkdown/wiki/MultiMarkdown-Syntax-Guide#m= ath-support https://github.com/fletcher/MultiMarkdown/wiki/Version-Histor https://fletcher.github.io/MultiMarkdown-6/introduction.html#whatarethediff= erentversionsofmultimarkdown Surprisingly however, early versions until 3.0 emitted LaTeX (including math!), by XSLT conversion from HTML including MathML! (The first git commit I can find https://github.com/fletcher/MultiMarkdown/commit/f7fcb4af5fdb83f58feaf4b8ec= 93bf689ca25fc6, not sure where if pre-git code is available) >From there, math support spread to many other implementations, with experimentation both in source syntax and output techniques... (MultiMarkdown itself switched formula input syntax from AsciiMath to TeX, and changed delimiters.) Early markdown extensions were pretty much free-for-all. Projects emulated other projects but there was no formal standard (othen than Gruber's original doc, which was effectively frozen), and no central place to coordinate. FWIW https://github.com/cben/mathdown/wiki/Math-in-MarkDown has no timeline but lists _a lot_ of implementations with _some_ math support. Incomplete, by this point I would not be surprised if it has less than half of implementations out there. (It's a wiki, additions welcome!) As any github wiki, it has git history which (very roughly) correlates with order of appearance =E2=80=94 but mostly the order in which I found time to investigate them... Bias: tools I had no access to, such as Mac-only ones, are less present and more lagging. I don't know if Pandoc was 2nd or later with math support, but it was certainly widely influential =E2=80=94 it set a high bar both in breadth an= d qualify of markdown extensions =F0=9F=91=8F, so I expect most people extend= ing markdown later, in any direction, were at least aware of it. Some sites within Stack Exchange also adopted $math$ support (I guess mathoverflow was the first?) which also must have been influential in the communities using formulas. * See my wiki, there is curious inconsistency with electronics.stackexchange.com, they alone chose \$...\$ for inline. Not sure what to learn from that case, perhaps that inter-operability was valued less than suiting particular community's situation. Then CommonMark appeared (jgm, thank you again ;-). While the spec itself is focused on nailing down original syntax + few very central additions (e.g. fenced blocks), it did provide a shared forum where people interested in markdown can collaborate on harmonizing syntax extensions. Math has been discussed a lot: https://talk.commonmark.org/t/mathematics-extension/457 https://talk.commonmark.org/t/mathjax-extension-for-latex-equations/698 https://talk.commonmark.org/t/ignore-latex-like-math-mode-or-parse-it/1926 https://talk.commonmark.org/t/can-math-formula-added-to-the-markdown/3140 https://talk.commonmark.org/t/math-rendering-re-visited/4086 As for GitHub's announcement, I'm happy they're recently adopting popular extensions (such as Mermaid), though I wish they sent some kind of "intent to implement" on commonmark forum ahead of shipping. Due to their weight in markdown space, any syntax they adopt is likely to become The definite syntax... =D0=BF=D1=82, 20 =D0=BC=D0=B0=D1=8F 2022 =D0=B3. =D0=B2 10:28, Albert Krewi= nkel : > GitHub recently introduced support for the `$`/`$$` Markdown math > syntax: > > This made me wonder when and how this TeX syntax made its way into > Markdown. I tried to dig through the history of old projects like pandoc > and MultiMarkdown, but didn't get very far. All I could find is that > pandoc has been supporting TeX math syntax for at least 15 years. > > Maybe someone here can satisfy my curiosity? > > -- > Albert Krewinkel > GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pandoc-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/87pmk88xxr.fsf%40zeitkra= ut.de > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CALJxei%2B%3D6CLro5VK9o-u2JaX46d3n8XcFtiDASOU3gUtMkOD5w%40ma= il.gmail.com. --000000000000f2329b05df6fe2a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[I'm only familiar with these projects after they= existed, happy to be corrected if my reconstruction is wrong]

I _suspect_ MultiMarkdown was the first.=C2=A0 It started = out as a fork of Gruber's Markdown.pl, and IIRC the whole point of &quo= t;multi" in the name was the novelty (at least in context of markdown)= of having multiple output formats, including LaTeX.
<= div>Surprisingly however, early versions until 3.0 emitted LaTeX (including= math!), by XSLT conversion from HTML including MathML!
(The = first git commit I can find https://github.com/f= letcher/MultiMarkdown/commit/f7fcb4af5fdb83f58feaf4b8ec93bf689ca25fc6, = not sure where if pre-git code is available)

F= rom there, math support spread to many other implementations, with experime= ntation both in source syntax and output techniques...=C2=A0
(MultiMarkdown itself switched formula input syntax from AsciiMath to TeX,= and changed delimiters.)

Early markdown extensions were pretty much free-for-all.=C2=A0 Projects emulated= =20 other projects but there was no formal standard (othen than Gruber's=20 original doc, which was effectively frozen), and no central place to=20 coordinate.

FWIW https://github.com/cben/mathd= own/wiki/Math-in-MarkDown has no timeline but lists _a lot_ of implemen= tations with _some_ math support.=C2=A0 Incomplete, by this point I would n= ot be surprised if it has less than half of implementations out there. (It&= #39;s a wiki, additions welcome!)
As any github wiki, it has git hi= story which (very roughly) correlates with order of appearance =E2=80=94 bu= t mostly the order in which I found time to investigate them... Bias: tools= I had no access to, such as Mac-only ones, are less present and more laggi= ng.

I don't know if Pandoc was 2nd or= later with math support, but it=20 was certainly widely influential =E2=80=94 it set a high bar both in breadt= h and qualify of markdown extensions =F0=9F=91=8F, so I expect most people exten= ding markdown later, in any direction, were at least aware of it.
=

Some sites within Stac= k Exchange also adopted $math$ support (I guess mathoverflow was the first?) which also must have been influential in=20 the communities using formulas.
* See my wiki, there is curious i= nconsistency with electron= ics.stackexchange.com, they alone chose \$...\$ for inline.=C2=A0 Not s= ure what to learn from that case, perhaps that inter-operability was value= d less than suiting particular community's situation.
Then CommonMark appeared (jgm, thank you again ;-).=C2=A0= While the spec itself is focused on nailing down original syntax + few ver= y central additions (e.g. fenced blocks), it did provide a shared forum whe= re people interested in markdown can collaborate on harmonizing syntax exte= nsions.
Math has been discussed a lot:

As for GitHub's announcement, I'm happy they're recently = adopting popular extensions (such as Mermaid), though I wish they sent some= kind of "intent to implement" on commonmark forum ahead of shipp= ing.
Due to their weight in markdown space, any syntax they a= dopt is likely to become The definite syntax...

<= br>
=D0=BF= =D1=82, 20 =D0=BC=D0=B0=D1=8F 2022 =D0=B3. =D0=B2 10:28, Albert Krewinkel &= lt;albert+pandoc@zeitkraut.= de>:
GitH= ub recently introduced support for the `$`/`$$` Markdown math
syntax: <https://github.blog/2022-05-19-m= ath-support-in-markdown/>

This made me wonder when and how this TeX syntax made its way into
Markdown. I tried to dig through the history of old projects like pandoc and MultiMarkdown, but didn't get very far. All I could find is that pandoc has been supporting TeX math syntax for at least 15 years.

Maybe someone here can satisfy my curiosity?

--
Albert Krewinkel
GPG: 8eed e3e2 e8c5 6f18 81fe=C2=A0 e836 388d c0b2 1f63 1124

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