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[209.85.214.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id nw34-20020a056871742200b001e99e02fa4csi379875oac.3.2023.10.20.12.09.13 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Oct 2023 12:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gwern0-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; Original-Received: by mail-pl1-f179.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1cac80292aeso8130435ad.1 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2023 12:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:eb8c:b0:1ca:2330:196a with SMTP id q12-20020a170902eb8c00b001ca2330196amr2940633plg.6.1697828951957; Fri, 20 Oct 2023 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: gwern-v26ZT+9V8bxeoWH0uzbU5w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gwern0-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gwern0-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:33222 Archived-At: --000000000000922c7206082a9b09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 12:11=E2=80=AFPM John MacFarlane wrote: > Any change to our algebraic data types is a breaking change that would > require modifications throughout the ecosystem (all writers and readers, > filters, etc.). That's why we're very conservative about such changes an= d > make them infrequently and only with very strong reasons. > This expression-problem topic merits an FAQ entry at this point. Dehaene's puzzlement here is a common & understandable one, because in many languages there would be little problem, and it's intuitive: how could merely tucking in an additional optional completely-backwards-compatible field be such a big deal? Only to a hardcore static-typing Haskeller, I think, is it immediately obvious that adding to the AST is a huge deal which will break *everything*, almost, because the problem is not backwards-compatibility, but forward-compatibility. It's an instance of the 'expression problem': the cost of static type safety of code operating on the AST is that they are going to break that static type safety should the type ever change. You can tell it's common & understandable because it comes up several times a year on this mailing list or the bugtracker, and shows no sign of going away. I think at this point it'd be good to have a short section somewhere on the expression problem and why changes to the AST are not going to happen... Not in https://pandoc.org/MANUAL.html , of course, as only extension writers will run into this, but perhaps in https://pandoc.org/using-the-pandoc-api.html ? (To explain why 'Yes, your extension just ran into a problem where enriching the AST would help, but that's not going to happen no matter how good it'd be, so don't bother asking'.) --=20 gwern https://gwern.net --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CAMwO0gyPC%3DeknmXkrAzGf%2Byfef1miXF4aFmJn4xG0atzkKJCzA%40ma= il.gmail.com. --000000000000922c7206082a9b09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 at 12:11=E2=80=AFPM John MacFarlane &= lt;fiddlosopher-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>= wrote:
Any change to our algebraic data types is a breaking change that would requ= ire modifications throughout the ecosystem (all writers and readers, filter= s, etc.).=C2=A0 That's why we're very conservative about such chang= es and make them infrequently and only with very strong reasons.

This expression-problem topic merits= an FAQ entry at this point.

Dehaene's puz= zlement here is a common & understandable one, because in many language= s there would be little problem, and it's intuitive: how could merely t= ucking in an additional optional completely-backwards-compatible field be s= uch a big deal? Only to a hardcore static-typing Haskeller, I think, is it = immediately obvious that adding to the AST is a huge deal which will break = *everything*, almost, because the problem is not backwards-compatibility, b= ut forward-compatibility. It's an instance of the 'expression probl= em': the cost of static type safety of code operating on the AST is tha= t they are going to break that static type safety should the type ever chan= ge.

You can tell it's common & underst= andable because it comes up several times a year on this mailing list or th= e bugtracker, and shows no sign of going away.

I t= hink at this point it'd be good to have a short section somewhere on th= e expression problem and why changes to the AST are not going to happen... = Not in https://pandoc.org/MANUAL= .html , of course, as only extension writers will run into this, but pe= rhaps in https://p= andoc.org/using-the-pandoc-api.html ? (To explain why 'Yes, your ex= tension just ran into a problem where enriching the AST would help, but tha= t's not going to happen no matter how good it'd be, so don't bo= ther asking'.)

-- <= /span>

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