German style quotes and pdf-output

German style quotes and pdf-output

[Beda Szukics]

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Hi all


I would like to use quotes in the german style. When I tranlate the 
following sentence with the smart-option I get the curly quotes in the 
english/american style:

Bob said: "Hallo."

So I tried avoid the translation process by using the correct quotes 
(copied from the article about quotation marks in the german Wikipedia):

Hans sagte: „Hoi zäme.“

Translating that into a pdf-file workes. But if I have a question or 
exclamation mark I get a funny output:

Hans fragt: „Gahd es no?“ turns into:  „Gahd es no¿‘ 

Hans ruft: „Hau ab!“ turns into:  „Hau ab¡‘

Translating the sentences in epub or html or docx gives the correct result. 
I gess it's the LaTeX step witch causes trouble because the closing quote 
mark results in:

„Gahd es no?`` and „Hau ab!``

Why are the two quotation marks treated differently by pandoc? Is there a 
way to avoid that? (Writing \“ doesn't help)

Greetings            Beda

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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[BP Jonsson]

2014-01-16 21:08, Beda Szukics skrev:
> Hi all
>
>
> I would like to use quotes in the german style. When I tranlate the
> following sentence with the smart-option I get the curly quotes in the
> english/american style:
>
> Bob said: "Hallo."
>
> So I tried avoid the translation process by using the correct quotes
> (copied from the article about quotation marks in the german Wikipedia):
>
> Hans sagte: „Hoi zäme.“
>
> Translating that into a pdf-file workes. But if I have a question or
> exclamation mark I get a funny output:
>
> Hans fragt: „Gahd es no?“ turns into:  „Gahd es no¿‘
>
> Hans ruft: „Hau ab!“ turns into:  „Hau ab¡‘
>
> Translating the sentences in epub or html or docx gives the correct result.
> I gess it's the LaTeX step witch causes trouble because the closing quote
> mark results in:
>
> „Gahd es no?`` and „Hau ab!``
>
> Why are the two quotation marks treated differently by pandoc? Is there a
> way to avoid that? (Writing \“ doesn't help)
>
> Greetings            Beda
>

You need to use the --no-tex-ligatures options if you have
Unicode  quotes etc. in your file.  Also, are you sure your
file is UTF-8-encoded?

/bpj

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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[Beda Szukics]

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The --no-tex-ligatures did the job. Thank you.

I use emacs as my editor. I select C-x ret f and chose utf-8 as coding
system for saving the file (otherwise pandoc complains about unknown
characters).

Beda


2014/1/16 BP Jonsson <bpj-J3H7GcXPSITLoDKTGw+V6w@public.gmane.org>

> 2014-01-16 21:08, Beda Szukics skrev:
>
>  Hi all
>>
>>
>> I would like to use quotes in the german style. When I tranlate the
>> following sentence with the smart-option I get the curly quotes in the
>> english/american style:
>>
>> Bob said: "Hallo."
>>
>> So I tried avoid the translation process by using the correct quotes
>> (copied from the article about quotation marks in the german Wikipedia):
>>
>> Hans sagte: „Hoi zäme.“
>>
>> Translating that into a pdf-file workes. But if I have a question or
>> exclamation mark I get a funny output:
>>
>> Hans fragt: „Gahd es no?“ turns into:  „Gahd es no¿‘
>>
>> Hans ruft: „Hau ab!“ turns into:  „Hau ab¡‘
>>
>> Translating the sentences in epub or html or docx gives the correct
>> result.
>> I gess it's the LaTeX step witch causes trouble because the closing quote
>> mark results in:
>>
>> „Gahd es no?`` and „Hau ab!``
>>
>> Why are the two quotation marks treated differently by pandoc? Is there a
>> way to avoid that? (Writing \“ doesn't help)
>>
>> Greetings            Beda
>>
>>
> You need to use the --no-tex-ligatures options if you have
> Unicode  quotes etc. in your file.  Also, are you sure your
> file is UTF-8-encoded?
>
> /bpj
>
>
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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[Axel Kielhorn]

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Am 16.01.2014 um 21:08 schrieb Beda Szukics:

> Hi all
> 
> 
> I would like to use quotes in the german style. When I tranlate the following sentence with the smart-option I get the curly quotes in the english/american style:
> 
> Bob said: "Hallo."
> 
> So I tried avoid the translation process by using the correct quotes (copied from the article about quotation marks in the german Wikipedia):
> 
> Hans sagte: „Hoi zäme.“

Axel sagt „Moin!“

If you only care about pdf output, just use a template file that uses

\usepackage{csquotes}

and make sure that the document language is german.[^1]
Pandoc will use \enquote for quotations and csquote will use the correct style.

For other formats (like epub) you can use the smart quotation marks and a small sed script to fix them:

pandoc --smart file.md -t markdown | sed -f smart2de | pandoc -f markdown -o file.epub

With smart2de containing the lines:

s/“/„/g
s/”/“/g

This doesn't leave an intermediate file and is quite fast.

As an alternative you can use Unicode quotation marks and the --no-tex-ligatures option as pbj suggested. This will disable -- and --- ligatures as well and the real quotation marks are a little more difficult to type (option-^ and shift-option-° on a german keyboard.)

[^1]: You will find some templates for german text on the pandoc extra page.

Axel sagt `:wq`


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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w]

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pandoc-citeproc already renders quotation marks in a locale-specific format 
if a locale is specified via metadata or by a command line option, using 
information on quotation mark formats from the CSL locale files.

Maybe pandoc could be made to use this for the text body as well.

If so, one could also think about combining locale and lang variables into 
one, likely using IETF language tags with or without allowing the use of 
babel/polyglossia language names as well. A mapping table from babel names 
to IETF tags is already available in pandoc-citeproc. If IETF tags are 
specified, they would of course have to be translated back to babel names 
when writing latex files.

On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:54:48 AM UTC, Axel Kielhorn wrote:
>
>
> Am 16.01.2014 um 21:08 schrieb Beda Szukics: 
>
> > Hi all 
> > 
> > 
> > I would like to use quotes in the german style. When I tranlate the 
> following sentence with the smart-option I get the curly quotes in the 
> english/american style: 
> > 
> > Bob said: "Hallo." 
> > 
> > So I tried avoid the translation process by using the correct quotes 
> (copied from the article about quotation marks in the german Wikipedia): 
> > 
> > Hans sagte: „Hoi zäme.“ 
>
> Axel sagt „Moin!“ 
>
> If you only care about pdf output, just use a template file that uses 
>
> \usepackage{csquotes} 
>
> and make sure that the document language is german.[^1] 
> Pandoc will use \enquote for quotations and csquote will use the correct 
> style. 
>
> For other formats (like epub) you can use the smart quotation marks and a 
> small sed script to fix them: 
>
> pandoc --smart file.md -t markdown | sed -f smart2de | pandoc -f markdown 
> -o file.epub 
>
> With smart2de containing the lines: 
>
> s/“/„/g 
> s/”/“/g 
>
> This doesn't leave an intermediate file and is quite fast. 
>
> As an alternative you can use Unicode quotation marks and the 
> --no-tex-ligatures option as pbj suggested. This will disable -- and --- 
> ligatures as well and the real quotation marks are a little more difficult 
> to type (option-^ and shift-option-° on a german keyboard.) 
>
> [^1]: You will find some templates for german text on the pandoc extra 
> page. 
>
> Axel sagt `:wq` 
>
>

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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[Axel Kielhorn]

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Am 17.01.2014 um 13:08 schrieb nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org:

> pandoc-citeproc already renders quotation marks in a locale-specific format if a locale is specified via metadata or by a command line option, using information on quotation mark formats from the CSL locale files.
> 
> Maybe pandoc could be made to use this for the text body as well.

There are two accepted ways to write quotation marks in german:
„“ and »« (and «» in de_ch).

The book I'm currently editing uses the later form.
This is not locale specific but rather style specific.

I'd rather use an explicit option instead of an implicit based on the language.

Since it is now possible to specify variables in YAML metadata it may be possible to add

quotation_marks: „“‚‘
quotation_marks: »«›‹『
quotation_marks: 『『『ux300e ux300f ux300c ux300d

Axel

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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w]

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I see. Specifying quotation mark formats in metadata could be an option 
here. Still, in order to get the same alternative quotation marks in a 
*bibliography*, the relevant CSL terms (example see below) would have to be 
redefined anyway. And I feel this could be done just as well by using a 
custom locale file, e.g., locales-de-DE-guillemets.xml, containing

    <term name="open-quote">»</term>
    <term name="close-quote">«</term>
    <term name="open-inner-quote">›</term>
    <term name="close-inner-quote">‹</term>

and declaring 
locale: de-DE-guillemets
in your markdown file metadata.




On Friday, 17 January 2014 14:26:01 UTC, Axel Kielhorn wrote:
>
>
> Am 17.01.2014 um 13:08 schrieb nickba...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org <javascript:>: 
>
> > pandoc-citeproc already renders quotation marks in a locale-specific 
> format if a locale is specified via metadata or by a command line option, 
> using information on quotation mark formats from the CSL locale files. 
> > 
> > Maybe pandoc could be made to use this for the text body as well. 
>
> There are two accepted ways to write quotation marks in german: 
> „“ and »« (and «» in de_ch). 
>
> The book I'm currently editing uses the later form. 
> This is not locale specific but rather style specific. 
>
> I'd rather use an explicit option instead of an implicit based on the 
> language. 
>
> Since it is now possible to specify variables in YAML metadata it may be 
> possible to add 
>
> quotation_marks: „“‚‘ 
> quotation_marks: »«›‹『 
> quotation_marks: 『『『ux300e ux300f ux300c ux300d 
>
> Axel

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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[BP Jonsson]

2014-01-17 15:26, Axel Kielhorn skrev:
>
> Am 17.01.2014 um 13:08 schrieb nickbart1980-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org:
>
>> pandoc-citeproc already renders quotation marks in a locale-specific format if a locale is specified via metadata or by a command line option, using information on quotation mark formats from the CSL locale files.
>>
>> Maybe pandoc could be made to use this for the text body as well.
>
> There are two accepted ways to write quotation marks in german:
> „“ and »« (and «» in de_ch).

It's the same in Swedish.  Outer/inner/alternative inner quotes 
can be any of

     ”...” / ’...’
     »...» / ’...’ / ”...”
     »...« / ’...’ / ”...”

Additionally an em-dash in the left margin may be used to quote 
speech.

>
> The book I'm currently editing uses the later form.
> This is not locale specific but rather style specific.

It's the same in Swedish -- it's style and genre dependent.

>
> I'd rather use an explicit option instead of an implicit based on the language.

Agreed.

>
> Since it is now possible to specify variables in YAML metadata it may be possible to add
>
> quotation_marks: „“‚‘
> quotation_marks: »«›‹『
> quotation_marks: 『『『ux300e ux300f ux300c ux300d

It would be less error-prone to use the data structure
capabilities of YAML:

     quotation_marks:
         double:  [„, “]
         single:  [‚, ‘]
     quotation_marks:
         double:  [», «]
         single:  [›, ‹]
     quotation_marks:
         double:  ["\u300e", "\u300f"]
         single:  ["\u300c", "\u300d"]

but you would also need a way to distinguish between

1)   Single quote
2)   Typographical apostrophe
3)   ASCII apostrophe

I guess `'` could be assumed to be (3) inside code and `\'`
assumed to be (2) outside code, but there should be a way to turn
that on and off too.

/bpj

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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[BP Jonsson]

2014-01-17 08:54, Axel Kielhorn skrev:
> As an alternative you can use Unicode quotation marks and the
> --no-tex-ligatures option as pbj suggested. This will disable
> -- and --- ligatures as well and the real quotation marks are a
> little more difficult to type (option-^ and shift-option-° on a
> german keyboard.)


It's easy to customize your keyboard layout to something
which is sensible to you.  It's even somewhat easier on
Windows than on Linux, if you're the GUI type of guy --
but who is on this list!? ;-)  I even use different
keyboards for prose and programming. You get used to it
pretty fast

Linux:
<http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/Blog/custom-keyboard-in-linuxx11>

Unfortunately there are only some dead keys, and they are kind of
special.

<http://linux.lsdev.sil.org/wiki/index.php/Building_an_XKB_Keyboard>

Windows:
<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx>

OS X:
<http://scripts.sil.org/ukelele>


> Axel sagt `:wq`

`:h abbreviations`
`:h mbyte-keymap`

You can easily map `` "` "' `` to the Unicode quotes, and
likeways -- --- to Unicode dashes.  A keymap may be preferable
since it's easier to turn off when writing in different languages,
computer or human.

/bpj

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Re: German style quotes and pdf-output

[Beda Szukics]

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Thank you for your suggestions. I'll have a closer look at them for my next
project.

Right now I'm satisfied with the --no-tex-ligatures option.

Beda


2014/1/17 Axel Kielhorn <a.kielhorn-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>

>
> Am 16.01.2014 um 21:08 schrieb Beda Szukics:
>
> > Hi all
> >
> >
> > I would like to use quotes in the german style. When I tranlate the
> following sentence with the smart-option I get the curly quotes in the
> english/american style:
> >
> > Bob said: "Hallo."
> >
> > So I tried avoid the translation process by using the correct quotes
> (copied from the article about quotation marks in the german Wikipedia):
> >
> > Hans sagte: „Hoi zäme.“
>
> Axel sagt „Moin!“
>
> If you only care about pdf output, just use a template file that uses
>
> \usepackage{csquotes}
>
> and make sure that the document language is german.[^1]
> Pandoc will use \enquote for quotations and csquote will use the correct
> style.
>
> For other formats (like epub) you can use the smart quotation marks and a
> small sed script to fix them:
>
> pandoc --smart file.md -t markdown | sed -f smart2de | pandoc -f markdown
> -o file.epub
>
> With smart2de containing the lines:
>
> s/“/„/g
> s/”/“/g
>
> This doesn't leave an intermediate file and is quite fast.
>
> As an alternative you can use Unicode quotation marks and the
> --no-tex-ligatures option as pbj suggested. This will disable -- and ---
> ligatures as well and the real quotation marks are a little more difficult
> to type (option-^ and shift-option-° on a german keyboard.)
>
> [^1]: You will find some templates for german text on the pandoc extra
> page.
>
> Axel sagt `:wq`
>
>

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