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dkim=pass header.i=@unibe.ch header.s=selector1 header.b=XDW8jNsZ; arc=pass (i=1 spf=pass spfdomain=unibe.ch dkim=pass dkdomain=unibe.ch dmarc=pass fromdomain=unibe.ch); spf=pass (google.com: domain of denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org designates 2a01:111:f403:4023::71f as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=unibe.ch Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:33234 Archived-At: --_000_GV0P278MB021102C19E4D996E3773D91283DDAGV0P278MB0211CHEP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For inspiration, maybe have a look at * https://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/index.html * https://docs.racket-lang.org/pollen/index.html * https://pml-lang.dev/docs/articles/practical-document-markup-language= /index.html Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Im A= uftrag von Guillaume Dehaene Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2023 09:42 An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Betreff: Re: Markdown: simple syntax for arbitrary nesting Hello all, Fritz, you make good points. (NB: are you aware of the typst project? It's a very different markup, but = it does offer some ideas of nesting that you might find appealing; it's als= o supported in pandoc) I agree that pandoc markdown goes beyond the initial markdown "manifesto" = and introduces additional complexity But I'm not sure if your proposal: 1. Meshes well with pandoc markdown structures: * I'm worried about conflicts / confusion with the html syntax {#id = .class key=3Dfoo} * I'm worried that any nesting constructs would overlap with the div= syntax: as a user, it might be hard to figure out exactly the intended use cases fo= r both as a strong believer in python, let me quote Guido Van Rossum There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. 1. Meshes well with the fundamentals of a markup language * Can we make wrapping extremely flexible (I think that's what you w= ant)? If so, isn't that going to cause issues for the wrapped content and the "wr= appee" content? can we put arbitrary marks on the wrapped content (for italics, etc)? * If we are restricted somehow, what is the restriction? is it obvio= us to the user? To be clear, it's really good to think about these ideas, and I believe tha= t there is potential here to construct an improved language but maybe it needs to diverge from pandoc markdown to get there I'd be interested to hear your future thoughts on this Best Guillaume Le jeu. 26 oct. 2023 =C3=A0 08:36, Fritz Fritzy > a =C3=A9crit : Thanks for the answer! RE nesting: I mean things like the use of asterisk inside emphasis/bold spans, or the d= ifferent ways paragraphs/lists/quotes/pre blocks work together wrt indentat= ion and newlines. I understand that when one knows the parsing rules, it's probably always do= able to make them do what one wants, but personally I often get them wrong. RE markdown's design: As far as I can tell, markdown has grown way farther than those initial goa= ls, and is now used for more than simple email-like content. Looking at all the different extensions defined and e.g. provided by pandoc= , I believ that ease of readability has been already left out: one has to k= now the semantics of footnotes, custom spans, custom divs, attribute blocks= already to know how to read them. Obviously, adding yet another new syntax construct can be seen as just addi= ng to the already present overhead, but it seems to me like: 1. It's easy to reason about, in that nesting is natural to understand, = and its parsing rules being (close to?) context free makes figuring out how= to make it work easier. 2. It would be enough to replace/cover quite a few of the already presen= t constructs (e.g. all the divs and spans, and maybe also attribute blocks = for titles?), thus reducing the cognitive cost both for writing and reading= markdown. 3. On a similar note, it would mean that e.g. when writing things like * emphasized text containing asterisks, one could just start with *{= }*, and not have to fear that the emphasis gets dropped. * any kind of block, say a list item, or a quote block, one could us= e braces again to reset the indentation to any value we like. In short, it seems to me that it's a simple enough, orthogonal and rather p= owerful syntax that doesn't _have_ to be used, but makes writing complex do= cuments that much easier. I understand that you and many people have probably spent way more time thi= nking about this than I have, and won't try to push my point further if it = hasn't been in any way convincing so far :) Thanks for your time, and for pandoc, which has already proven incredibly u= seful to me! On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 2:58:32=E2=80=AFPM UTC John MacFarlane wr= ote: > On Oct 24, 2023, at 11:06 PM, Fritz Fritzy > wrote: > > Hi, > > Using markdown, I've often been frustrated by > > =E2=80=A2 Its flat/non-recursive/non-nested nature, by which I mean that = you mostly cannot write "arbitrary" markdown inside most elements, and if y= ou can, you have to be very careful with whitespaces/indentation/etc. I'm not sure what you mean: generally you can nest things, you just have to= pay attention to the syntax. Examples? > =E2=80=A2 The impossibility to easily interlink to arbitrary parts of the= document. > To solve both issues, I'd like to propose an extension that allows "simpl= y" using braces (or some other punctuation pair) to allow nesting, with an = option to tag/add attributes to the contents like that. I think this goes against the spirit of Markdown, which prioritizes source = readability rather than easy writeability. "The overriding design goal for Markdown=E2=80=99s formatting syntax is to = make it as readable as possible. The idea is that a Markdown- formatted doc= ument should be publishable as-is, as plain text, without looking like it= =E2=80=99s been marked up with tags or formatting instructions." (http://da= ringfireball.net/projects/markdown/) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/80b20bbf-1f3f-4473-9d0d-5017ce7a1baen%40googlegroups.com. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/CAKOoOVWTtzokYLhLNdd5C67_FVor2RREFebCTA73s4jb76_Zwg%40mail.g= mail.com. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. 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For inspiration, maybe have a look at

 

 

Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Im Auftrag von Guillaume Dehaene
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. Oktober 2023 09:42
An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
Betreff: Re: Markdown: simple syntax for arbitrary nesting

 

Hello all,

 

Fritz, you make good points.
(NB: are you aware of the typst project? It's a very different markup,= but it does offer some ideas of nesting that you might find appealing; it'= s also supported in pandoc)

I agree that pandoc markdown goes beyond the initial markdown "manifes= to"  and introduces additional complexity
But I'm not sure if your proposal:

  1. Meshes well with pandoc markdown structures:
    1. I'm worried about conflicts / confusion with the html syntax {#id .class ke= y=3Dfoo}
    2. I'm worried that any nesting constructs would overlap with the div syntax:<= br> as a user, it might be hard to figure out exactly the intended use cases fo= r both
      as a strong believer in python, let me quote Guido Van Rossum

There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvi= ous way to do it.

  1. Meshes well with the fundamentals of a markup language
    1. Can we make wrapping extremely flexible (I think that's what you want)= ?
      If so, isn't that going to cause issues for the wrapped content a= nd the "wrappee" content?
      can we put arbitrary marks on the wrapped content (for italics, etc)?<= o:p>
    2. If we are restricted somehow, what is the restriction? is it obvious to the= user?

To be clear, it's really good to think about these i= deas, and I believe that there is potential here to construct an improved l= anguage

but maybe it needs to diverge from pandoc markdown t= o get there

I'd be interested to hear your future thoughts on this

 

Best
Guillaume

 

Le jeu. 26 oct. 2023 =C3=A0 08:36, Fritz F= ritzy <emil= e.valjean-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> a =C3=A9crit :

Thanks for the answer!

 

RE nesting:

I mean things like the use of asterisk inside emphas= is/bold spans, or the different ways paragraphs/lists/quotes/pre blocks wor= k together wrt indentation and newlines.

I understand that when one knows the parsing rules, = it's probably always doable to make them do what one wants, but personally = I often get them wrong.

 

RE markdown's design:

As far as I can tell, markdown has grown way farther= than those initial goals, and is now used for more than simple email-like = content.

Looking at all the different extensions defined and = e.g. provided by pandoc, I believ that ease of readability has been already= left out: one has to know the semantics of footnotes, custom spans, custom= divs, attribute blocks already to know how to read them.

Obviously, adding yet another new syntax construct c= an be seen as just adding to the already present overhead, but it seems to = me like:

  1. It's easy to reason about, in that nesting is natural to understand, and it= s parsing rules being (close to?) context free makes figuring out how to ma= ke it work easier.
  2. It would be enough to replace/cover quite a few of the already present cons= tructs (e.g. all the divs and spans, and maybe also attribute blocks for ti= tles?), thus reducing the cognitive cost both for writing and reading markd= own.
  3. On a similar note, it would mean that e.g. when writing things like 
    1. emphasized text containing asterisks, one could just start with *{}*, and n= ot have to fear that the emphasis gets dropped.
    2. any kind of block, say a list item, or a quote block, one could use braces = again to reset the indentation to any value we like.

In short, it seems to me that it's a simple enough, = orthogonal and rather powerful syntax that doesn't _have_ to be used, but m= akes writing complex documents that much easier.

 

I understand that you and many people have probably = spent way more time thinking about this than I have, and won't try to push = my point further if it hasn't been in any way convincing so far :)

 

Thanks for your time, and for pandoc, which has alre= ady proven incredibly useful to me!

 

On Wednesday, October 25, 2023 at 2:58:32=E2=80=AFPM= UTC John MacFarlane wrote:



> On Oct 24, 2023, at 11:06 PM, Fritz Fritzy <emile....-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Using markdown, I've often been frustrated by
>
> =E2=80=A2 Its flat/non-recursive/non-nested nature, by which I mean th= at you mostly cannot write "arbitrary" markdown inside most eleme= nts, and if you can, you have to be very careful with whitespaces/indentati= on/etc.


I'm not sure what you mean: generally you can nest things, you just have to= pay attention to the syntax. Examples?


> =E2=80=A2 The impossibility to easily interlink to arbitrary parts of = the document.
> To solve both issues, I'd like to propose an extension that allows &qu= ot;simply" using braces (or some other punctuation pair) to allow nest= ing, with an option to tag/add attributes to the contents like that.


I think this goes against the spirit of Markdown, which prioritizes source = readability rather than easy writeability.

"The overriding design goal for Markdown=E2=80=99s formatting syntax i= s to make it as readable as possible. The idea is that a Markdown- formatte= d document should be publishable as-is, as plain text, without looking like= it=E2=80=99s been marked up with tags or formatting instructions." (http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/)

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/80b20bbf-1f3f-4473-9d0d-50= 17ce7a1baen%40googlegroups.com.

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