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[138.128.164.242]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n64si731158vkc.3.2016.12.16.14.02.58 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: softfail (google.com: domain of transitioning bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org does not designate 138.128.164.242 as permitted sender) client-ip=138.128.164.242; Original-Received: from [178.249.150.152] (port=57208 helo=[192.168.1.248]) by manu6.manufrog.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cI0ac-002HFQ-KM for pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2016 23:02:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20161216210120.GC15292-l/d5Ua9yGnxXsXJlQylH7w@public.gmane.org> X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - manu6.manufrog.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - googlegroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - gmail.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: manu6.manufrog.com: authenticated_id: bpj-J3H7GcXPSITLoDKTGw+V6w@public.gmane.org X-Authenticated-Sender: manu6.manufrog.com: bpj-J3H7GcXPSITLoDKTGw+V6w@public.gmane.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Original-Sender: bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=softfail (google.com: domain of transitioning bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org does not designate 138.128.164.242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; dmarc=fail (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:16458 Archived-At: Den 2016-12-16 kl. 22:01, skrev John MacFarlane: > There are lots of people who post to the issue tracker > things like: why can't you support feature X in Source > Format? It renders in Target Format like so... > > They often don't realize that in order to do this, we'd have > to make feature X representable in the AST, and that > would mean handling it in every reader and every writer. > > I think that's the kind of thing Kolen is referring to. Yes I realize that, but the remedy for that is a prominent note in=20 the manual explaining the situation, not complicationg a logo. Honestly I don't think those people give a farthing how and why it doesn't work, once they realize that it doesn't work. The tiny fraction who do care don't need to be reminded by a logo=20 design and the many who don't care won't start to care because of=20 a logo design. Something along the lines of "Pandoc uses an internal=20 representation of the processed document which is mostly limited=20 to what can be represented in Pandoc's own Markdown variant. This means that some features in other source formats aren't=20 supported by Pandoc and can't be implemented without radical=20 changes to the internal representation which are not likely to be=20 implemented anytime soon. This does however not mean that new=20 features which make sense in Pandoc's Markdown are out of the=20 question. Such features have been added from time to time and that=20 may well happen again in the future." in the manual and in=20 CONTRIBUTING.md would probably be both needed and sufficient. /bpj > > +++ BP Jonsson [Dec 16 16 16:39 ]: >> TL;DR: I see no reason to require that a logo reflects aspects >> of the >> project beyond the basic public interface, and absolutely no >> reason to >> make a logo design unnecessarily complex for such a reason, >> because >> there shouldn't be any pressure on users to get involved >> beyond the >> public interface, except as and when they feel the need >> themselves. >> I've been thinking a bit more about this and I wonder what >> kinds of >> misunderstandings of the model you are thinking of. The >> closest thing I >> have seen on this list and on StackExchange has been users >> getting >> bitten by this or that feature of LaTeX or RestructuredText >> not being >> representable in the current AST format. I wouldn't call that >> misunderstanding of the model but rather ignorance of what >> structural >> elements of supported markup formats *the current >> implementation of the >> model* can or cannot represent. That's not even limitations of >> the >> model but limitations of the current implementation which >> could be >> removed[^1] in a future implementation. I would argue that if >> they were >> removed most users would just say "phew, finally pandoc >> supports my >> favorite markup feature" without caring about what changes in the >> implementation, let alone the model, have made it possible. >> That is as >> it should be. Users should not be required, prodded or even >> expected to >> understand the engineering behind an application, only the public >> interface. What sets open source apart is that users *may* >> explore, >> understand and get involved in the engineering, even are >> invited to do >> so, but there should be no pressure to do so. Even those who >> do get >> involved usually only do so as and when they are able and >> willing to >> enhance their own use of the product, or for their own >> gratification, >> and that's entirely as it should be. Myself I'm still a total >> Haskell >> illiterate, confining my contributions, and hence also my >> understanding, to filterland. I have gotten rather involved in >> Jakob's >> Perl filter support project, but that's in the end also >> helping myself >> to write filters in my preferred language. To be sure I have >> written >> some filters in response to requests on this list, but >> naturally that >> has been as and when I have had, or got, an interest in the >> functionality requested. Otherwise I have only more or less >> successfully requested John or others to add features I have >> needed. >> That may change some day but there are hundreds if not >> thousands of >> users out there who don't even get to the level where I am, >> and that's >> entirely legitimate. >> [^1]: NB I'm saying "could", not "should", but I'm thinking >> that even >> without extending the current set of AST elements some >> unsupported >> input format constructs could optionally be turned into Div, >> Span or >> link elements with certain attributes by the readers so that >> they could >> be handled with filters or turned back into their original >> constructs >> by the corresponding writers -- optionally, since those >> attributes >> containers would clutter the markdown output. That's another >> discussion >> however! >> /bpj >> >> Den 16 dec 2016 00:55 skrev "BP Jonsson" >> <[1]bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>: >> >> You may see the =E2=88=80 in the middle as representing the =E2=88= =80ST >> around which >> the conversion between different input and output formats >> revolves! >> :-) >> /bpj >> Den 2016-12-15 kl. 01:40, skrev Kolen Cheung: >> >> On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:45:41 AM UTC-8, BP wrote: >> To a normal user (I.e. you aren=E2=80=99t a Pandoc contributor or >> filter >> author) >> the AST is an implementation detail which you don=E2=80=99t interact >> with. >> The >> normal user experience is pandoc -f markdown -t html`, i.e. you >> input a >> document in one markup format and get (a file) in anotheir >> markup >> format >> (possibly zipped together with sundry other files) as output, >> without any >> intermediate file or files. There is no point in creating a >> false >> impression that there always must be an intermediate file. >> In fact >> that may >> scare off potential normal users. To them the thing which sets >> pandoc apart >> from other light markup processors is that it supports >> conversion >> back and >> forth between multiple markup formats, and the logo should >> emphasize >> that. >> The logo needs to be intelligible and meaningful to the less >> geeky >> users >> which hopefully are in majority. >> /bpj >> It certainly is another possible perspective. So let me >> illustrate >> more on >> my perspective: >> 1. >> There are countless examples of expectation from end-users >> (including >> me) that originated from the misunderstanding of what >> pandoc is >> and what >> pandoc does. Rather than trying not to =E2=80=9Cscare off potenti= al >> normal users=E2=80=9D >> (which is unlikely to happen from a logo alone, since >> they won=E2=80=99t >> understand >> the nuance in it at first sight), may be we should set the >> expectation >> right as early as possible, so that they won=E2=80=99t be >> disappointed >> later on, >> and will not waste time to use pandoc for the wrong task. >> 2. >> The logo having arrows pointing to a common element >> representing >> AST >> will not make a real difference on first sight. But it >> would be a >> great >> =E2=80=9Centry point=E2=80=9D to talk about the philosophy behind= pandoc. >> Having >> a 2nd >> layer of sophistication means intelligible and meaningful >> to me. >> (i.e. at >> first sight you get something, but there=E2=80=99s a deeper story >> behind >> it.) >> - To further illustrate on this point, at first glance, >> pandoc >> seems >> very similar to some other tool, e.g. MultiMarkdown. >> But as >> one pushes the >> tools further, they will realize pandoc is much deeper >> than >> what it seems >> like at first glance. So, if the logo can have layers of >> meaning, it >> represents pandoc better. >> I don=E2=80=99t mean it has to be done this way. I mean if there=E2= =80=99s >> arrows, >> arrows >> pointing to a common element is more correct and deeper, and >> doesn=E2=80=99t >> really >> scare off people (may actually attract the right people), >> and is a >> path >> worth explore. But if no design makes this looks good and >> natural, >> we need >> not to force it. >> =E2=80=8B >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >> from it, >> send an email to >> [2]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org >> To post to this group, send email to >> [3]pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> [4]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/29dbdf52-29 >> 4b-b6a9-b598-ea742b5d4afb%40gmail.com. >> For more options, visit [5]https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >> it, send >> an email to [6]pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org >> To post to this group, send email to >> [7]pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> >> [8]https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuRfJ_8rEtGqxJ >> >> vnWudMKT%2Bpgm8Go_cqoQ9TMDcN%2BqnsBA%40mail.gmail.com. >> For more options, visit [9]https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:bpjonsson-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org >> 2. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org >> 3. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org >> 4. >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/29dbdf52-294b-b6a9-b598= -ea742b5d4afb-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org >> >> 5. https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> 6. mailto:pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org >> 7. mailto:pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org >> 8. >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/CAFC_yuRfJ_8rEtGqxJvnWu= dMKT+pgm8Go_cqoQ9TMDcN+qnsBA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source= =3Dfooter >> >> 9. https://groups.google.com/d/optout > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. 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