AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[<denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 01:55
> An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-
> discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org;
> amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation inside quotes
> transformation:
> 
>     pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
>       #1:                                                            FAIL (0.08s)
>         --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
>         +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations
>         +   1 Here is a "test citation".[^1]
>         -   1 Here is a "test citation."[^1]
> 
> I can look into whether I can target this better so it only affects citations.
> 
> Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed that the CSL spec
> just says to bring , and . inside. I can change that.

Oh, I have probably been confused and confusing... Clearly, regarding citations we should of course abide by the spec, and revise that if necessary. (Here, I think the problem is not so severe since we usually don't have question marks or exclamation marks that are not part of the title. Punctuation that is used to separate bibliographic elements are usally periods or commas anyway.)

But, in with quotations there are a lot of border cases. Like the behaviour prescribed by the Chicago Manual of Style: Put periods and commas inside quotation marks in all cases, but question marks and exclamation marks only if they appear in the quoted matter, i.e. in the original source. And, with German and British: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was there in the quoted matter. Sometimes there's even a further restriction: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was there in the quoted matter, and if we're quoting a complete sentence.

Denis


> 
> <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
> >> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
> >> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
> >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> >> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> >>
> >>
> >> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change
> >> the attribute punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style
> >> to 'false'. That will disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
> >>
> >> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want
> >> to defeat this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
> >>
> >> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only
> >> affect citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall at
> >> the moment why I implemented it this way.
> >
> > I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
> > 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
> > 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed for
> switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?
> >
> > FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas,
> which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable
> which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by
> Rik:
> >
> >> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a
> quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that the
> large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, US practice
> supports both.
> >> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default position
> (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
> >
> > This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically
> aware punctuation moving mechanism (see
> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already
> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
> > Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list,
> > with the first implementation about here:
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html
> > There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or less)
> on this:
> >
> >>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> >  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> >>
> >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation
> >> determines, according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go
> >> inside or outside the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou,
> >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.htm
> >> l)
> >
> > I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for
> pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> >
> >> If someone wants to put up an issue at
> >> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
> >> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations,
> >> I'll look into it.
> >>
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