From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/28712 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? 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[130.92.0.83]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l23si581455lfj.3.2021.06.29.01.54.39 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org designates 130.92.0.83 as permitted sender) client-ip=130.92.0.83; X-Virus-Scanned: By University of Bern - MGW Original-Received: from mail.campus.unibe.ch (aai-edge-03.campus.unibe.ch [130.92.13.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailhub-lb2.unibe.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F53E500096; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 10:54:37 +0200 (CEST) Thread-Topic: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? Thread-Index: AQHXabaRoJKZIiGTgU+oMGWVDbmfRKspj18AgAA36sCAADXjgIAAtgRA In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-CH, en-US Content-Language: de-DE x-originating-ip: [172.18.72.2] X-Original-Sender: denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org designates 130.92.0.83 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=unibe.ch Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:28712 Archived-At: > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: John MacFarlane > Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 01:55 > An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) ; pandoc- > discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org; > amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org > Betreff: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? >=20 >=20 > Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation inside quo= tes > transformation: >=20 > pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md > #1: FAIL= (0.08s) > --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md > +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations > + 1 Here is a "test citation".[^1] > - 1 Here is a "test citation."[^1] >=20 > I can look into whether I can target this better so it only affects citat= ions. >=20 > Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed that the CS= L spec > just says to bring , and . inside. I can change that. Oh, I have probably been confused and confusing... Clearly, regarding citat= ions we should of course abide by the spec, and revise that if necessary. (= Here, I think the problem is not so severe since we usually don't have ques= tion marks or exclamation marks that are not part of the title. Punctuation= that is used to separate bibliographic elements are usally periods or comm= as anyway.) But, in with quotations there are a lot of border cases. Like the behaviour= prescribed by the Chicago Manual of Style: Put periods and commas inside q= uotation marks in all cases, but question marks and exclamation marks only = if they appear in the quoted matter, i.e. in the original source. And, with= German and British: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks = when it was there in the quoted matter. Sometimes there's even a further re= striction: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it wa= s there in the quoted matter, and if we're quoting a complete sentence. Denis >=20 > writes: >=20 > > Hi, > > > >> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > >> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org > >> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane > >> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22 > >> An: William Lupton ; pandoc-discuss > >> > >> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? > >> > >> > >> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change > >> the attribute punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style > >> to 'false'. That will disable all punctuation moving around quotes. > >> > >> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want > >> to defeat this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space. > >> > >> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only > >> affect citations, not other parts of the document. I can't recall at > >> the moment why I implemented it this way. > > > > I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons: > > 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc. > > 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also need= ed for > switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right? > > > > FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, > which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configur= able > which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by > Rik: > > > >> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a > quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that= the > large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?=E2=80= =9D). So, US practice > supports both. > >> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default p= osition > (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content. > > > > This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semanticall= y > aware punctuation moving mechanism (see > https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already > https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354). > > Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, > > with the first implementation about here: > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html > > There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or = less) > on this: > > > >> "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > >> > >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation > >> determines, according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go > >> inside or outside the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, > >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.htm > >> l) > > > > I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good f= it for > pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here. > > > > Denis > > > > > >> If someone wants to put up an issue at > >> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues > >> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, > >> I'll look into it. > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > >> send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org > >> To view this discussion on the web visit > >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc- > >> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/bae49311ad1f4a49b925be9caa80a4aa%40unibe.ch.