Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[Joshua <joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>]

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Yes Denis, that's right: suppressing the author inserts parentheses into 
the mix, unfortunately. (It would also involve manually tracking the 
citations and adjusting them any time the order changed.) The more I think 
about it, though, the more I realize that if pandoc has trouble with 
"ibid," I might just switch to a style that does not use "ibid" at all. 
Staying with pandoc v2.10 is not really a long-term solution, and pandoc is 
more important to me than any particular style guide!

Joshua

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 11:41:16 AM UTC-8 Denis Maier wrote:

> Oh, looks like it won't if I understand John's comments in the other 
> thread correctly...
>
>
>
> Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> 
> Datum: 11.11.20 20:37 (GMT+01:00) 
> An: pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, j...-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org 
> Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x 
>
> Don't know if that works in that case, but using a minus before the @ 
> usually suppresses the author.
>
> I agree with you that it would be favourable to suppress the author here 
> automatically. Currently that is not officially possible with CSL.
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> 
> Datum: 11.11.20 20:02 (GMT+01:00) 
> An: pandoc-discuss <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> 
> Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x 
>
> Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long 
> time, but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb 
> project here.
>
> After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with 
> the times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the 
> second issue, though. Suppose I type:
> Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim 
> in @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]
>
> This then renders:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.
>
> Whereas the behavior I intend:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.
>
> This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not 
> understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or 
> maybe I simply cannot.
>
> Many thanks once again,
> Joshua
>
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>> Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes: 
>>
>> > (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in 
>> > footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm 
>> > noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate 
>> thread.) 
>> > 
>> > There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using 
>> > chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example. 
>> > Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1: 
>> > [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*. 
>> > [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72. 
>> > [3] Augustine, ibid, 46. 
>> > Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in 
>> note 2 
>> > instead of using "ibid", 
>>
>> It's not clear that's a problem. Indeed, we made a change to get 
>> just this behavior. See 
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703 
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813 
>> https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121 
>>
>> According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when 
>> the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same 
>> source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation 
>> "consists of a single cite referencing the same item." 
>>
>> In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is 
>> satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation 
>> is just "Augustine, The City of God." However, that in-text 
>> citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the 
>> whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing 
>> the two items. So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in 
>> this case. 
>>
>> > and (2) it repeats the author in note 3. 
>>
>> That's because (I assume) you've used an author-in-text citation 
>> form, which always prints the author. Note the difference 
>> between 
>>
>> blah blah [@augustine:city]. 
>>
>> and 
>>
>> blah blah^[@augustine:city]. 
>>
>> IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name 
>> will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with 
>> an author-in-text citation. 
>>
>> We need this behavior because you might say 
>> "@augustine:city says blah" in the main text, and we'd want 
>> to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid." 
>> This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed 
>> to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note. 
>>
>> -- 
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