From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/11017 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Frank Bennett Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: Footnote with citations and multiple paragraphs using pandoc-citeproc Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <3FDE0D22-3F5C-4471-9451-CD0FA4E96531@gmail.com> <20140926210311.GB20437@berkeley.edu> <246e0391-eb53-40d3-bb59-dc1c97d94ebb@googlegroups.com> <20140927041953.GA38502@localhost.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> <945be504-882b-46e8-b653-e373d579008b@googlegroups.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_695_1470789857.1412128524552" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1412128534 25803 80.91.229.3 (1 Oct 2014 01:55:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 01:55:34 +0000 (UTC) To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDL6TVEYXENRBD56VWQQKGQE6XOGR4A-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Wed Oct 01 03:55:29 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-pd0-f191.google.com ([209.85.192.191]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XZ98b-0007Hb-0d for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane.org; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 03:55:29 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-pd0-f191.google.com with SMTP id fp1sf19079pdb.8 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:55:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UXV78A3towm4my5ATDiQGadZr1F4OUev1X/7CkNo4b4=; b=Ehjkd4RgIXM3lu/Qk2b6MlHzwOOWkaUGO7rIfarg3jM2R3TN/BoH8Li0pS0FRw0RYa nu/pdIWXZuumSiy6ieSQS0ni82QX+lopNzTvp28Q9hSGChlogbMP2WSSuDsb8lXiqLMG 8IaqKPqN63Z6rWMuSTLJhX1ZzH0wD8UXFKLH6vcOdttT7PiAMnJA+zVOiw9dctDt0cvZ ebt7xX15/w5D2Yb2ATF7S4Fi+xjO+uZgokU8FEkXW+o2Ux7jA2mJlAC+9trWH47U9cGZ Uc6Bhppw1kx5xLA8G7PUbQH0zbUk1a0ge1o9XHfhKUUE9QFKuQCOkOW57RU+l6xjquHH KXJA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=UXV78A3towm4my5ATDiQGadZr1F4OUev1X/7CkNo4b4=; b=had3Po2FIHEaMHLxO7/baHT+PDDf75QxZKxd0/hgWlBm6bVeL2uJnGVM5/0pZ1AcLQ p9/DsksyxtpmymY/9cCoeEyqViyQ2ELl4Qd/Wx0zdrvtamdNp8yWLBV8WnZvqE8eVW9Z cAIkHHr5rAYPFvMDYpMgvj1U+msba8HUbcwhnufJkhNehbfiyaCzDbQkXsF4e5utWkga OIWhU/O3KebPLZOk7QzCTabyqweDLZG+TyyLrE7Xx3wVFWj/OrQLBR2fP5sdP9ZHPyY6 ituY1t6/eIq0mhxd6ccGmt/izuIZdmkb88N4/7gdf/1hyehQU3BLmwfJGHLYBHVlFEet Rigg== X-Received: by 10.50.41.103 with SMTP id e7mr177041igl.8.1412128527588; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:55:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 10.50.138.36 with SMTP id qn4ls677140igb.8.gmail; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:55:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.43.196 with SMTP id y4mr176829igl.13.1412128527055; Tue, 30 Sep 2014 18:55:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <945be504-882b-46e8-b653-e373d579008b-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: biercenator-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.text.pandoc:11017 Archived-At: ------=_Part_695_1470789857.1412128524552 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This has been a problem for the note styles forever. MLZ is starting to attract users in the legal domain, and I have had occasional reports of exactly this problem. Several users have suggested just removing terminal punctuation from the style altogether, but I've been reluctant to go the "big hammer" route in that way. I finally moved on a solution that involves changes in MLZ and citeproc-js alone, without changes in the styles themselves. In a given document, the user is given the option of suppressing terminal punctuation on all citations. If selected, the option takes effect for all citation clusters (regardless of context), without possibility of override, but affects only note styles (class="note"). If the global option is *not* selected, terminal punctuation can be suppressed on individual citations. This seems to be satisfactory (the MLZ community is small, but there are active users in the pool and I haven't had any complaints). The behaviour is MLZ is driven by manual user adjustments to the document and citation settings; it's not automagic because citeproc-js (running in MLZ at least) doesn't have access to enough of the document context. I suspect that it would hard to automate completely, though. Frank Bennett On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:14:14 AM UTC+9, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > > On Saturday, September 27, 2014 12:20:07 AM UTC-4, John MacFarlane wrote: >> >> +++ hgv [Sep 26 14 14:43 ]: >> >A larger solution might be in giving up the ability of pandoc-citeproc >> to >> >produce either inline citations or note citations. I understand how >> useful >> >this is, but if it doesn't actually work for one side of it (notes), I >> >don't see the value. Of course, I only work with Chicago >> note-bibliography, >> >which is where my bias comes from. But it seems to be designed primarily >> >for those who work with Chicago author-date (and other inline styles), >> not >> >really those who use both extensively. But as I'm sure this would entail >> a >> >fair amount of work to just get back to where it is now, I understand >> the >> >downsides. >> >> The question is this: in footnote styles, how SHOULD a citation that >> appears inside a note be formatted? Clearly not as a footnote, but >> unfortunately beyond that the style won't give us guidance. Should >> it be a separate sentence? In parentheses? In brackets? These are >> all stylistic variations, but the style can't help us here because >> it's a note style. >> >> If this question could be answered, perhaps progress could be made. >> > > John (or anyone else interested in this issue) - have you checked how > citeproc-js (Zotero and such) deals with this? > > This has been a known issue since the foundation of CSL (I distinctly > remember talking in terms of a distinction between "footnoted citations" > and "citations in footnotes" a long time ago), so I have to believe it's > been solved, even if I don't remember how. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To post to this group, send email to pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/d62aab34-b6d9-4aa9-a961-0534e601987b%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_695_1470789857.1412128524552 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This has been a problem for the note styles forever. MLZ i= s starting to attract users in the legal domain, and I have had occasional = reports of exactly this problem. Several users have suggested just removing= terminal punctuation from the style altogether, but I've been reluctant to= go the "big hammer" route in that way.

I finally moved on a solutio= n that involves changes in MLZ and citeproc-js alone, without changes in th= e styles themselves. In a given document, the user is given the option of s= uppressing terminal punctuation on all citations. If selected, the option t= akes effect for all citation clusters (regardless of context), without poss= ibility of override, but affects only note styles (class=3D"note"). If the = global option is *not* selected, terminal punctuation can be suppressed on = individual citations. This seems to be satisfactory (the MLZ community is s= mall, but there are active users in the pool and I haven't had any complain= ts).

The behaviour is MLZ is driven by manual user adjustments to th= e document and citation settings; it's not automagic because citeproc-js (r= unning in MLZ at least) doesn't have access to enough of the document conte= xt. I suspect that it would hard to automate completely, though.

Fra= nk Bennett


On Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:14:14 AM UTC+9, Bruce= D'Arcus wrote:
On Saturday, September 27, 2014 12:20:07 AM UTC-4, John MacFarlane wrote:=
+++ hgv [Sep 26 14 14:43 ]:
>A larger solution might be in giving up the ability of pandoc-citep= roc to
>produce either inline citations or note citations. I understand how= useful
>this is, but if it doesn't actually work for one side of it (notes)= , I
>don't see the value. Of course, I only work with Chicago note-bibli= ography,
>which is where my bias comes from. But it seems to be designed prim= arily
>for those who work with Chicago author-date (and other inline style= s), not
>really those who use both extensively. But as I'm sure this would e= ntail a
>fair amount of work to just get back to where it is now, I understa= nd the
>downsides.

The question is this:  in footnote styles, how SHOULD a citation t= hat
appears inside a note be formatted?  Clearly not as a footnote, bu= t
unfortunately beyond that the style won't give us guidance.  Shoul= d
it be a separate sentence?  In parentheses?  In brackets? &nb= sp;These are
all stylistic variations, but the style can't help us here because
it's a note style.

If this question could be answered, perhaps progress could be made.

John (or anyone else interested in thi= s issue) - have you checked how citeproc-js (Zotero and such) deals with th= is? 

This has been a known issue since the fo= undation of CSL (I distinctly remember talking in terms of a distinction be= tween "footnoted citations" and "citations in footnotes" a long time ago), = so I have to believe it's been solved, even if I don't remember how. <= /div>

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