localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

[Carlos Franke]

(First time posting to this list.)

I am trying to use pandoc with "and others" in my biblatex bibliography
file, as explained in the biblatex reference [0], section 2.2.1 "Data
Types": "Name lists may be truncated in the bib file with the keyword
‘and others’. Typical examples of name lists are author and editor."

However when I am using a non-english language for my document, only
"and" gets translated automatically, "others" stays unlocalised. Is
there any way to have it, too, auto-translated?


[0] 
http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/CTAN/macros/latex/contrib/biblatex/doc/biblatex.pdf

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Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

[John MacFarlane]

Can you give an example of the biblatex entry you're using?

Carlos Franke <carlosfranke-1KBjaw7Xf1+zQB+pC5nmwQ@public.gmane.org> writes:

> (First time posting to this list.)
>
> I am trying to use pandoc with "and others" in my biblatex bibliography
> file, as explained in the biblatex reference [0], section 2.2.1 "Data
> Types": "Name lists may be truncated in the bib file with the keyword
> ‘and others’. Typical examples of name lists are author and editor."
>
> However when I am using a non-english language for my document, only
> "and" gets translated automatically, "others" stays unlocalised. Is
> there any way to have it, too, auto-translated?
>
>
> [0] 
> http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/CTAN/macros/latex/contrib/biblatex/doc/biblatex.pdf
>
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Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

[Carlos Franke]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 806 bytes --]

> Can you give an example of the biblatex entry you're using?

Attached are a one-entry biblatex file with "and others" in the edtior
field, a minimal markdown example and the resulting PDF. Note the "und
others" in the PDF output: "und" is the German translation of "and",
"others" is untranslated.

Compilation command: pandoc --output="temp.pdf" --citeproc "temp.md"

pandoc version 2.11.4

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[-- Attachment #2: bibliography.bib --]
[-- Type: text/x-bibtex, Size: 427 bytes --]

% Encoding: UTF-8
@InReference{hoke,
  author     = {Rudolf Hoke},
  title      = {Gegenreformation},
  booktitle  = {Handwörterbuch der Deutschen Rechtsgeschichte},
  year       = {2004},
  editor     = {Albrecht Cordes and others},
  volume     = {I},
  edition    = {2},
  pages      = {S. 1996-2001},
  url        = {https://www.hrgdigital.de/HRG.gegenreformation},
  urldate    = {2021-01-19},
  pagination = {column},
}

[-- Attachment #3: temp.md --]
[-- Type: text/markdown, Size: 76 bytes --]

---
lang: de

bibliography: bibliography.bib

---

[@hoke]

# Bibliography


[-- Attachment #4: temp.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 69061 bytes --]

Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

IIRC pandoc does not try to convert "and others" from bibtex or biblatex to CSL since the CSL specs just don’t seem to support abbreviating a list of authors with a placeholder - and I for one can’t really think of a sensible way of handling this automatically.

In effect, CSL assumes that it’s always possible to include a full list of authors in one’s database. Unless the names of the "others" are genuinely unobtainable, I guess that would be the way to go in this case, too.

What CSL does support is abbreviating lists of authors when formatting bibliographies. So if the number of authors seems too large to be included in the output, one could always try to find (or modify) a CSL style that renders an abbreviated list only.

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AW: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

[denis.maier-FfwAq0itz3ofv37vnLkPlQ]

Yes, inputwise open ended name list are not supported by CSL at the moment. If I understand the code correctly, Pandoc splits bibtex name lists at "and" at the moment, with the "others" being returned as `Just "others"`. Shouldn't it be possible to translate that string? Or to throw an error/warning  message?
________________________________________
Von: 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Februar 2021 15:21:29
An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
Betreff: Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

IIRC pandoc does not try to convert "and others" from bibtex or biblatex to CSL since the CSL specs just don’t seem to support abbreviating a list of authors with a placeholder - and I for one can’t really think of a sensible way of handling this automatically.

In effect, CSL assumes that it’s always possible to include a full list of authors in one’s database. Unless the names of the "others" are genuinely unobtainable, I guess that would be the way to go in this case, too.

What CSL does support is abbreviating lists of authors when formatting bibliographies. So if the number of authors seems too large to be included in the output, one could always try to find (or modify) a CSL style that renders an abbreviated list only.

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Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

[Carlos Franke]

> IIRC pandoc does not try to convert "and others" from bibtex or
> biblatex to CSL since the CSL specs just don’t seem to support
> abbreviating a list of authors with a placeholder

I see. In my case the publication itself provides only the abbreviated
editors list. I guess the best workaround for now is to include my
desired translated variant of "and others" verbatim in the biblatex
file.

I just found an old, but still active as of last June, issue about this
in the CSL Github repo:

https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/34

So it seems there is a chance that support for explicit "and
others"/"et al" will be implemented in CSL at some point in the future.


By the way, sorry to the list for the unnecessary in my last email.
Just after sending it I realised that a more lightweight output like
txt would have been better.

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Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

[BPJ]

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The main linguistic problem I can see is that the proper form of 'others'
may be gender dependent for some languages. In Icelandic it would be
feminine, masculine or neuter depending on whether the list of others is
all female, all male or mixed. You could fudge it by always using neuter,
and for other languages whichever form is used for groups of indeterminate
gender, but the results may seem odd to native speakers. This kind of
uneasy compromises because of insufficient data are of course common in
computing, but should be considered.

-- 
Better --help|less than helpless

Den tis 23 feb. 2021 15:45 <denis.maier-FfwAq0itz3ofv37vnLkPlQ@public.gmane.org> skrev:

> Yes, inputwise open ended name list are not supported by CSL at the
> moment. If I understand the code correctly, Pandoc splits bibtex name lists
> at "and" at the moment, with the "others" being returned as `Just
> "others"`. Shouldn't it be possible to translate that string? Or to throw
> an error/warning  message?
> ________________________________________
> Von: 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Februar 2021 15:21:29
> An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists
>
> IIRC pandoc does not try to convert "and others" from bibtex or biblatex
> to CSL since the CSL specs just don’t seem to support abbreviating a list
> of authors with a placeholder - and I for one can’t really think of a
> sensible way of handling this automatically.
>
> In effect, CSL assumes that it’s always possible to include a full list of
> authors in one’s database. Unless the names of the "others" are genuinely
> unobtainable, I guess that would be the way to go in this case, too.
>
> What CSL does support is abbreviating lists of authors when formatting
> bibliographies. So if the number of authors seems too large to be included
> in the output, one could always try to find (or modify) a CSL style that
> renders an abbreviated list only.
>
> --
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> "pandoc-discuss" group.
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> .
>
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> .
>

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Re: localisation of "and others" in biblatex name lists

[Joost Kremers]

On Tue, Feb 23 2021, BPJ wrote:
> The main linguistic problem I can see is that the proper form of 'others'
> may be gender dependent for some languages. In Icelandic it would be
> feminine, masculine or neuter depending on whether the list of others is
> all female, all male or mixed.

Neuter for a mixed list? That's interesting (and very good! ;-)

But why not stick to the Latin "et al." then? It has the gender abbreviated out
of it, and has the additional advantage that no localisation is necessary (well,
not in Europe, anyway...))

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments