Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[Joshua]

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(This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in 
footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm 
noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate thread.)

There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using 
chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example. 
Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1:
[1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
[2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72.
[3] Augustine, ibid, 46.
Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in note 2 
instead of using "ibid", and (2) it repeats the author in note 3. The 
problem is fixed if I downgrade to pandoc version 2.10 (same csl files, 
etc.), where I get the correct output:
[1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
[2] ibid., 72.
[3] ibid., 46.
If this is user error, you have my apologies. If the changes since v2.10 
simply require a workaround for this, please point me in the right 
direction.

Many thanks,
Joshua

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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[John MacFarlane]

Joshua <joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in
> footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm
> noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate thread.)
>
> There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using
> chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example.
> Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1:
> [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
> [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72.
> [3] Augustine, ibid, 46.
> Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in note 2
> instead of using "ibid",

It's not clear that's a problem.  Indeed, we made a change to get
just this behavior.  See

https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813
https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121

According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when
the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same
source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation
"consists of a single cite referencing the same item."

In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is
satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation
is just "Augustine, The City of God."  However, that in-text
citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the
whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing
the two items.  So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in
this case.

> and (2) it repeats the author in note 3.

That's because (I assume) you've  used an author-in-text citation
form, which always prints the author.  Note the difference
between

blah blah [@augustine:city].

and

blah blah^[@augustine:city].

IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name
will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with
an author-in-text citation.

We need this behavior because you might say
"@augustine:city says blah" in  the main text, and we'd want
to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid."
This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed
to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note.

Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[Joshua]

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Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time, 
but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here.

After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the 
times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the 
second issue, though. Suppose I type:
Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in 
@AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]

This then renders:
[1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
[2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.

Whereas the behavior I intend:
[1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
[2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.

This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not 
understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or 
maybe I simply cannot.

Many thanks once again,
Joshua

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:

> Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in
> > footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm
> > noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate 
> thread.)
> >
> > There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using
> > chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example.
> > Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1:
> > [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
> > [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72.
> > [3] Augustine, ibid, 46.
> > Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in note 
> 2
> > instead of using "ibid",
>
> It's not clear that's a problem. Indeed, we made a change to get
> just this behavior. See
>
>
> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703
> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813
> https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121
>
> According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when
> the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same
> source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation
> "consists of a single cite referencing the same item."
>
> In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is
> satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation
> is just "Augustine, The City of God." However, that in-text
> citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the
> whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing
> the two items. So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in
> this case.
>
> > and (2) it repeats the author in note 3.
>
> That's because (I assume) you've used an author-in-text citation
> form, which always prints the author. Note the difference
> between
>
> blah blah [@augustine:city].
>
> and
>
> blah blah^[@augustine:city].
>
> IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name
> will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with
> an author-in-text citation.
>
> We need this behavior because you might say
> "@augustine:city says blah" in the main text, and we'd want
> to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid."
> This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed
> to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note.
>
>

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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[Denis Maier]

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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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Don't know if that works in that case, but using a minus before the @ usually suppresses the author.I agree with you that it would be favourable to suppress the author here automatically. Currently that is not officially possible with CSL.
-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: Joshua <joshua.kerr@gmail.com> Datum: 11.11.20  20:02  (GMT+01:00) An: pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time, but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here.After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the second issue, though. Suppose I type:Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]This then renders:[1] Augustine, City of God, 72.[2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.Whereas the behavior I intend:[1] Augustine, City of God, 72.[2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or maybe I simply cannot.Many thanks once again,JoshuaOn Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in
> footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm
> noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate thread.)
>
> There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using
> chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example.
> Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1:
> [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
> [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72.
> [3] Augustine, ibid, 46.
> Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in note 2
> instead of using "ibid",

It's not clear that's a problem.  Indeed, we made a change to get
just this behavior.  See

https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813
https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121

According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when
the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same
source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation
"consists of a single cite referencing the same item."

In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is
satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation
is just "Augustine, The City of God."  However, that in-text
citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the
whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing
the two items.  So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in
this case.

> and (2) it repeats the author in note 3.

That's because (I assume) you've  used an author-in-text citation
form, which always prints the author.  Note the difference
between

blah blah [@augustine:city].

and

blah blah^[@augustine:city].

IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name
will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with
an author-in-text citation.

We need this behavior because you might say
"@augustine:city says blah" in  the main text, and we'd want
to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid."
This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed
to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note.





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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[Denis Maier]

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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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Oh, looks like it won't if I understand John's comments in the other thread correctly...Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet
-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Datum: 11.11.20  20:37  (GMT+01:00) An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, jgm@berkeley.edu Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x Don't know if that works in that case, but using a minus before the @ usually suppresses the author.I agree with you that it would be favourable to suppress the author here automatically. Currently that is not officially possible with CSL.-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: Joshua <joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> Datum: 11.11.20  20:02  (GMT+01:00) An: pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss@googlegroups.com> Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time, but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here.After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the second issue, though. Suppose I type:Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]This then renders:[1] Augustine, City of God, 72.[2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.Whereas the behavior I intend:[1] Augustine, City of God, 72.[2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or maybe I simply cannot.Many thanks once again,JoshuaOn Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in
> footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm
> noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate thread.)
>
> There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using
> chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example.
> Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1:
> [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*.
> [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72.
> [3] Augustine, ibid, 46.
> Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in note 2
> instead of using "ibid",

It's not clear that's a problem.  Indeed, we made a change to get
just this behavior.  See

https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813
https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121

According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when
the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same
source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation
"consists of a single cite referencing the same item."

In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is
satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation
is just "Augustine, The City of God."  However, that in-text
citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the
whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing
the two items.  So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in
this case.

> and (2) it repeats the author in note 3.

That's because (I assume) you've  used an author-in-text citation
form, which always prints the author.  Note the difference
between

blah blah [@augustine:city].

and

blah blah^[@augustine:city].

IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name
will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with
an author-in-text citation.

We need this behavior because you might say
"@augustine:city says blah" in  the main text, and we'd want
to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid."
This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed
to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note.





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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[Joshua]

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Yes Denis, that's right: suppressing the author inserts parentheses into 
the mix, unfortunately. (It would also involve manually tracking the 
citations and adjusting them any time the order changed.) The more I think 
about it, though, the more I realize that if pandoc has trouble with 
"ibid," I might just switch to a style that does not use "ibid" at all. 
Staying with pandoc v2.10 is not really a long-term solution, and pandoc is 
more important to me than any particular style guide!

Joshua

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 11:41:16 AM UTC-8 Denis Maier wrote:

> Oh, looks like it won't if I understand John's comments in the other 
> thread correctly...
>
>
>
> Von meinem/meiner Galaxy gesendet
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> 
> Datum: 11.11.20 20:37 (GMT+01:00) 
> An: pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, j...-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org 
> Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x 
>
> Don't know if that works in that case, but using a minus before the @ 
> usually suppresses the author.
>
> I agree with you that it would be favourable to suppress the author here 
> automatically. Currently that is not officially possible with CSL.
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> 
> Datum: 11.11.20 20:02 (GMT+01:00) 
> An: pandoc-discuss <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> 
> Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x 
>
> Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long 
> time, but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb 
> project here.
>
> After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with 
> the times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the 
> second issue, though. Suppose I type:
> Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim 
> in @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]
>
> This then renders:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.
>
> Whereas the behavior I intend:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.
>
> This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not 
> understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or 
> maybe I simply cannot.
>
> Many thanks once again,
> Joshua
>
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 10:01:25 AM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>> Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes: 
>>
>> > (This is a followup to "Removing parentheses around citations in 
>> > footnotes": *thank you so much* for the fix there. The behavior I'm 
>> > noticing now is different enough that I thought it worth a separate 
>> thread.) 
>> > 
>> > There seems to be an issue with "ibid." I'm using 
>> > chicago-note-bibliography-with-ibid.csl and a dummy file as an example. 
>> > Here's what I get with v2.11.1.1: 
>> > [1] Dodds, *Euripedes*; see also Augustine, *The City of God*. 
>> > [2] Augustine, *The City of God*, 72. 
>> > [3] Augustine, ibid, 46. 
>> > Note that there are two problems here: (1) it repeats the source in 
>> note 2 
>> > instead of using "ibid", 
>>
>> It's not clear that's a problem. Indeed, we made a change to get 
>> just this behavior. See 
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/commit/5aafa0e58ce37d56677bf88f52c4e6591e867703 
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc#6813 
>> https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation#121 
>>
>> According to the spec, ibid is supposed to be triggered only when 
>> the cited item (a) immediately follows another cite to the same 
>> source within the same citation or (b) the previous citation 
>> "consists of a single cite referencing the same item." 
>>
>> In this case there is some ambiguity about whether (b) is 
>> satisfied -- technically, it is, because the previous citation 
>> is just "Augustine, The City of God." However, that in-text 
>> citation occurs in a note with another citation, such that the 
>> whole thing is indistinguishable from a note citation containing 
>> the two items. So we treat the item as not a "single cite" in 
>> this case. 
>>
>> > and (2) it repeats the author in note 3. 
>>
>> That's because (I assume) you've used an author-in-text citation 
>> form, which always prints the author. Note the difference 
>> between 
>>
>> blah blah [@augustine:city]. 
>>
>> and 
>>
>> blah blah^[@augustine:city]. 
>>
>> IN the first case you have a normal citation, and the author name 
>> will be suppressed. In the second case, you have a footnote with 
>> an author-in-text citation. 
>>
>> We need this behavior because you might say 
>> "@augustine:city says blah" in the main text, and we'd want 
>> to get "Augustine(1) says blah" with a note "(1) Ibid." 
>> This structure (author name + note with "ibid") gets transformed 
>> to "Augustine, ibid." when it is found within a note. 
>>
>> -- 
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> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/5fac3d7d.1c69fb81.8ceda.81c8SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING%40gmr-mx.google.com 
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/5fac3d7d.1c69fb81.8ceda.81c8SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING%40gmr-mx.google.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[John MacFarlane]

Joshua <joshua.kerr-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time, 
> but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here.
>
> After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the 
> times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the 
> second issue, though. Suppose I type:
> Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in 
> @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]
>
> This then renders:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.
>
> Whereas the behavior I intend:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.
>
> This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not 
> understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or 
> maybe I simply cannot.

It's usually better just to use inline references; in a note
style they will be automatically converted to notes.

So do this:

Blah [@AugustineCityGod2008, 72]. Blah [Compare to the competing claim in 
@AugustineCityGod2008, 46].

This uses regular citations, not author-in-text citations.
Not only will it give you the ibid you want, it will also allow
you to switch easily to an author-date citation style if you
wish.

Pandoc will automatically create the notes and rearrange spacing
and punctuation.

Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[Joshua]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2145 bytes --]

Now I'm starting to understand the issue and the advantage of doing it this 
way. Thank you again.
Joshua

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 12:12:47 PM UTC-8 John MacFarlane wrote:

> Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long 
> time, 
> > but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project 
> here.
> >
> > After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with 
> the 
> > times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the 
> > second issue, though. Suppose I type:
> > Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim 
> in 
> > @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]
> >
> > This then renders:
> > [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> > [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.
> >
> > Whereas the behavior I intend:
> > [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> > [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.
> >
> > This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not 
> > understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or 
> > maybe I simply cannot.
>
> It's usually better just to use inline references; in a note
> style they will be automatically converted to notes.
>
> So do this:
>
> Blah [@AugustineCityGod2008, 72]. Blah [Compare to the competing claim in 
> @AugustineCityGod2008, 46].
>
> This uses regular citations, not author-in-text citations.
> Not only will it give you the ibid you want, it will also allow
> you to switch easily to an author-date citation style if you
> wish.
>
> Pandoc will automatically create the notes and rearrange spacing
> and punctuation.
>

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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[jcr]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3281 bytes --]

This thread helped me to realize that pandoc doesn't have the kind of 
citations that I use in narrative footnotes. Often I could get what I want, 
but not always. What I really need in footnotes is the equivalent of a 
BibLaTeX \cite{}. I don't want AuthorInText, I just want InText. Like 
Joshua, I don't want to force the author name to be included in the 
citation. I realize that I can often achieve this by using prefixes and 
suffixes on a citation instead of making a footnote, but this won't work in 
all cases. Specifically, it doesn't allow the footnote to have two or more 
paragraphs. I've also had trouble writing footnotes with citations in 
multiple sentences: perhaps there's a workaround, but it seemed that there 
always had to be a semicolon separating citations.

So if both AuthorInText and InText citations are needed, what syntax could 
be used? One idea would be to take @smith04 as an in-text citation, 
+@smith04 as an author-in-text citation, and -@smith04 as an authorless 
in.-text citation. That seems logical to me, but has the disadvantage of 
changing the meaning of @smith04. Another option would be to use attributes 
or classes to specify citation types, like [@smith04]{.intext}.

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 9:12:47 PM UTC+1 John MacFarlane wrote:

> Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes: 
>
> > Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long 
> time, 
> > but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project 
> here. 
> > 
> > After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with 
> the 
> > times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the 
> > second issue, though. Suppose I type: 
> > Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim 
> in 
> > @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.] 
> > 
> > This then renders: 
> > [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72. 
> > [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46. 
> > 
> > Whereas the behavior I intend: 
> > [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72. 
> > [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46. 
> > 
> > This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not 
> > understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or 
> > maybe I simply cannot. 
>
> It's usually better just to use inline references; in a note 
> style they will be automatically converted to notes. 
>
> So do this: 
>
> Blah [@AugustineCityGod2008, 72]. Blah [Compare to the competing claim in 
> @AugustineCityGod2008, 46]. 
>
> This uses regular citations, not author-in-text citations. 
> Not only will it give you the ibid you want, it will also allow 
> you to switch easily to an author-date citation style if you 
> wish. 
>
> Pandoc will automatically create the notes and rearrange spacing 
> and punctuation. 
>

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AW: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[denis.maier-FfwAq0itz3ofv37vnLkPlQ]

Yes, I also think adding a new mode would be a good idea. But I wouldn't want the current syntax to change in backwards incompatible ways, and adding more symbols that are not super evident feels a bit odd. I like the proposal to use classes for this though as that would be extensible.
________________________________________
Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> im Auftrag von jcr <ffi.appdev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. November 2020 13:06:50
An: pandoc-discuss
Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

This thread helped me to realize that pandoc doesn't have the kind of citations that I use in narrative footnotes. Often I could get what I want, but not always. What I really need in footnotes is the equivalent of a BibLaTeX \cite{}. I don't want AuthorInText, I just want InText. Like Joshua, I don't want to force the author name to be included in the citation. I realize that I can often achieve this by using prefixes and suffixes on a citation instead of making a footnote, but this won't work in all cases. Specifically, it doesn't allow the footnote to have two or more paragraphs. I've also had trouble writing footnotes with citations in multiple sentences: perhaps there's a workaround, but it seemed that there always had to be a semicolon separating citations.

So if both AuthorInText and InText citations are needed, what syntax could be used? One idea would be to take @smith04 as an in-text citation, +@smith04 as an author-in-text citation, and -@smith04 as an authorless in.-text citation. That seems logical to me, but has the disadvantage of changing the meaning of @smith04. Another option would be to use attributes or classes to specify citation types, like [@smith04]{.intext}.

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 9:12:47 PM UTC+1 John MacFarlane wrote:
Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time,
> but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here.
>
> After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the
> times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the
> second issue, though. Suppose I type:
> Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in
> @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]
>
> This then renders:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.
>
> Whereas the behavior I intend:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.
>
> This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not
> understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or
> maybe I simply cannot.

It's usually better just to use inline references; in a note
style they will be automatically converted to notes.

So do this:

Blah [@AugustineCityGod2008, 72]. Blah [Compare to the competing claim in
@AugustineCityGod2008, 46].

This uses regular citations, not author-in-text citations.
Not only will it give you the ibid you want, it will also allow
you to switch easily to an author-date citation style if you
wish.

Pandoc will automatically create the notes and rearrange spacing
and punctuation.

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AW: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[denis.maier-FfwAq0itz3ofv37vnLkPlQ]

Maybe that could be useful for other output formats as well, e.g biblatex?
________________________________________
Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> im Auftrag von denis.maier-FfwAq0itz3ofv37vnLkPlQ@public.gmane.org <denis.maier-FfwAq0itz3ofv37vnLkPlQ@public.gmane.org>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. November 2020 17:36:35
An: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
Betreff: AW: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

Yes, I also think adding a new mode would be a good idea. But I wouldn't want the current syntax to change in backwards incompatible ways, and adding more symbols that are not super evident feels a bit odd. I like the proposal to use classes for this though as that would be extensible.
________________________________________
Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> im Auftrag von jcr <ffi.appdev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. November 2020 13:06:50
An: pandoc-discuss
Betreff: Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

This thread helped me to realize that pandoc doesn't have the kind of citations that I use in narrative footnotes. Often I could get what I want, but not always. What I really need in footnotes is the equivalent of a BibLaTeX \cite{}. I don't want AuthorInText, I just want InText. Like Joshua, I don't want to force the author name to be included in the citation. I realize that I can often achieve this by using prefixes and suffixes on a citation instead of making a footnote, but this won't work in all cases. Specifically, it doesn't allow the footnote to have two or more paragraphs. I've also had trouble writing footnotes with citations in multiple sentences: perhaps there's a workaround, but it seemed that there always had to be a semicolon separating citations.

So if both AuthorInText and InText citations are needed, what syntax could be used? One idea would be to take @smith04 as an in-text citation, +@smith04 as an author-in-text citation, and -@smith04 as an authorless in.-text citation. That seems logical to me, but has the disadvantage of changing the meaning of @smith04. Another option would be to use attributes or classes to specify citation types, like [@smith04]{.intext}.

On Wednesday, November 11, 2020 at 9:12:47 PM UTC+1 John MacFarlane wrote:
Joshua <joshu...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Thanks for such a helpful, prompt reply. I've loved pandoc for a long time,
> but I had no idea the support was this good. You have a superb project here.
>
> After consulting the style guides, it looks like pandoc is keeping with the
> times and I am not. I'm still a bit confused about your response to the
> second issue, though. Suppose I type:
> Blah.^[@AugustineCityGod2008, 72.] Blah.^[Compare to the competing claim in
> @AugustineCityGod2008, 46.]
>
> This then renders:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in Augustine, ibid, 46.
>
> Whereas the behavior I intend:
> [1] Augustine, *City of God*, 72.
> [2] Compare to the rather different claim in ibid, 46.
>
> This is the behavior I achieved before upgrading pandoc, but I do not
> understand the directives I need to give in order to achieve it now. Or
> maybe I simply cannot.

It's usually better just to use inline references; in a note
style they will be automatically converted to notes.

So do this:

Blah [@AugustineCityGod2008, 72]. Blah [Compare to the competing claim in
@AugustineCityGod2008, 46].

This uses regular citations, not author-in-text citations.
Not only will it give you the ibid you want, it will also allow
you to switch easily to an author-date citation style if you
wish.

Pandoc will automatically create the notes and rearrange spacing
and punctuation.

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Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[John MacFarlane]

jcr <ffi.appdev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> So if both AuthorInText and InText citations are needed, what syntax could 
> be used? One idea would be to take @smith04 as an in-text citation, 
> +@smith04 as an author-in-text citation, and -@smith04 as an authorless 
> in.-text citation. That seems logical to me, but has the disadvantage of 
> changing the meaning of @smith04. Another option would be to use attributes 
> or classes to specify citation types, like [@smith04]{.intext}.

I think we'd actually be most of the way there if we could
only distisguish, at the post-citeproc stage, between
@-foo and [@-foo].  In notes, with note styles, we could
render the former with no parentheses and the latter with
parentheses (as currently).  Both syntaxes are already allowed.
The problem is that these are indistinguishable given our current
types.  They are both marked as SuppressAuthor citations
(the other alternatives being AuthorOnly and NormalCitation).

If we had something like BareSuppressAuthor, or a field like
doNotPutInNote, we could move forward.

Unfortunately this would require changes to pandoc-types,
which can be a bit painful for the ecosystem.

Re: Formatting of "ibid" in v2.11.x

[John MacFarlane]

FI Apps <ffi.appdev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> I think it's better to carefully choose a solution and change pandoc-types
> than for SuppressAuthor to have different semantics depending on whether or
> not there's a square bracket in the citation text.

That won't be possible anyway -- I realized that by the time
we're doing the deNote operation (handling note citations inside
notes), the brackets are gone, replaced by a note, and we really
can't distinguish the two forms.  So we would need a chance to
pandoc-types.

> I'm not looking for a BareSuppressAuthor, I'm looking for a normal citation
> in footnote text, which will include the author's name unless it uses ibid.

Right, I do understand that.  I was exploring what could be done
without any changes to the syntax of citations, though.

> If you don't want to change pandoc-types, there is another possible
> solution, which is to not add parentheses to [@foo] in footnotes—returning
> to the 2.10 behavior in that regard. To get parentheses, it would then be
> necessary to write [(@foo)], putting the parentheses inside the brackets so
> that the citation processing code can know to adjust the citation
> accordingly (as citeproc-js does).

Yes, this could be done, but then you won't be able to switch
effortlessly between author-date and note styles -- you'd have
to know ahead of time that you were working in a note style.
(In non-note styles, citeproc itself will add delimiters
according to the style, e.g. parens.)

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Pandoc: Suggestions for latex table generator

[Gabriel Nützi]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2372 bytes --]

*Hi all,*

As I realized, styling tables especially for HTML output is a breeze, 
because of CSS, styling with Latex Output, you need to post-process the 
pandoc output,
or write your own writer (really dont want to do this).

The question is why the current writer uses always `minipages` inside 
`longtable` (if lists are present) and does not use something like this.
Are there ways to influence the styling better than Regex/Python 
postprocessing the output of Pandoc. meaning removing wrong `/strut`, 
changing row definitions etc...

The following table in question: 
https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/571329/minipage-in-table-has-strange-inter-row-spacing
is produced by Pandoc which is not really ideal, nor does it allow any 
customization in the Tex-Template or so...
I am not a latex expert, maybe some of them could comment on the below 
rather parametric approach.

*Thanks a lot*


The better output would be along the line (as answered in the question), 
by using :

|\documentclass{article} \usepackage{array, % new booktabs, longtable, 
makecell} % new \usepackage{enumitem} % new \usepackage{etoolbox} % new 
\AtBeginEnvironment{longtable}{% \setlist[itemize]{nosep=0pt, 
leftmargin=*, label=\textbullet, after=\end{minipage}, % <--- 
before=\begin{minipage}[t]{\linewidth} % <--- }} \begin{document} 
\begingroup \setcellgapes{2pt} \makegapedcells \begin{longtable}[]{@{} 
 >{\raggedright}p{\dimexpr0.45\columnwidth-\tabcolsep} 
 >{\raggedright}p{\dimexpr0.55\columnwidth-\tabcolsep} @{}} 
\caption{Title}\tabularnewline \toprule Column A & Column B 
\tabularnewline \midrule \endfirsthead \toprule|
|Column A & Column B|
|\tabularnewline \midrule \endhead Was ist passiert? & \begin{itemize} 
\item Item 1 \item Item 2 \end{itemize} \tabularnewline Wie fühle ich 
mich? Und du? & |||\begin{itemize} \item Item 1 \item Item 2 \end{itemize} 
\tabularnewline|\bottomrule \end{longtable} \endgroup|

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Re: Pandoc: Suggestions for latex table generator

[John MacFarlane]

The recommendation to use p columns may be fine for some cases,
but I'm skeptical it will work for all of the block-level
constructions pandoc needs to produce.  I think there was a
reason we used minipage and not p.

Worth experimenting around with it, though.

Gabriel Nützi <gnuetzi-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> *Hi all,*
>
> As I realized, styling tables especially for HTML output is a breeze, 
> because of CSS, styling with Latex Output, you need to post-process the 
> pandoc output,
> or write your own writer (really dont want to do this).
>
> The question is why the current writer uses always `minipages` inside 
> `longtable` (if lists are present) and does not use something like this.
> Are there ways to influence the styling better than Regex/Python 
> postprocessing the output of Pandoc. meaning removing wrong `/strut`, 
> changing row definitions etc...
>
> The following table in question: 
> https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/571329/minipage-in-table-has-strange-inter-row-spacing
> is produced by Pandoc which is not really ideal, nor does it allow any 
> customization in the Tex-Template or so...
> I am not a latex expert, maybe some of them could comment on the below 
> rather parametric approach.
>
> *Thanks a lot*
>
>
> The better output would be along the line (as answered in the question), 
> by using :
>
> |\documentclass{article} \usepackage{array, % new booktabs, longtable, 
> makecell} % new \usepackage{enumitem} % new \usepackage{etoolbox} % new 
> \AtBeginEnvironment{longtable}{% \setlist[itemize]{nosep=0pt, 
> leftmargin=*, label=\textbullet, after=\end{minipage}, % <--- 
> before=\begin{minipage}[t]{\linewidth} % <--- }} \begin{document} 
> \begingroup \setcellgapes{2pt} \makegapedcells \begin{longtable}[]{@{} 
>  >{\raggedright}p{\dimexpr0.45\columnwidth-\tabcolsep} 
>  >{\raggedright}p{\dimexpr0.55\columnwidth-\tabcolsep} @{}} 
> \caption{Title}\tabularnewline \toprule Column A & Column B 
> \tabularnewline \midrule \endfirsthead \toprule|
> |Column A & Column B|
> |\tabularnewline \midrule \endhead Was ist passiert? & \begin{itemize} 
> \item Item 1 \item Item 2 \end{itemize} \tabularnewline Wie fühle ich 
> mich? Und du? & |||\begin{itemize} \item Item 1 \item Item 2 \end{itemize} 
> \tabularnewline|\bottomrule \end{longtable} \endgroup|
>
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Re: Pandoc: Suggestions for latex table generator

[John MacFarlane]

OK, I see that the suggested code in the stackexchange post does
this:

\setlist[itemize]{nosep=0pt,
                 leftmargin=*,
                 label=\textbullet,
                 after=\end{minipage},                  % <---
                 before=\begin{minipage}[t]{\linewidth} % <---
                 }

So, that allows itemize environments to occur inside the
table cells.  But it won't help, I think, with other
kinds of block level constructions that we need to include.
And it would require setting these special itemize options
every time we have a table (ugly).  I wonder if there's
another way to improve row spacing.

Re: Pandoc: Suggestions for latex table generator

[John MacFarlane]

Sorry, I see that the suggestion puts this in the
preamble, attaching it to longtable using etoolbox.
Well, that could work for lists inside table cells.
I'm just not sure EVERYTHING will work that way;
it would require testing.

I opened an issue so we can keep track of this:
https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/6860

John MacFarlane <fiddlosopher-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> OK, I see that the suggested code in the stackexchange post does
> this:
>
> \setlist[itemize]{nosep=0pt,
>                  leftmargin=*,
>                  label=\textbullet,
>                  after=\end{minipage},                  % <---
>                  before=\begin{minipage}[t]{\linewidth} % <---
>                  }
>
> So, that allows itemize environments to occur inside the
> table cells.  But it won't help, I think, with other
> kinds of block level constructions that we need to include.
> And it would require setting these special itemize options
> every time we have a table (ugly).  I wonder if there's
> another way to improve row spacing.

Re: Pandoc: Suggestions for latex table generator

[John MacFarlane]

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Sorry, before getting too far into this discussion I should
have asked what version of pandoc you were using.  An old one,
it appears.  I tried generating a similar table using the
current version and I got very different output -- and no
issue with cramped spacing between rows.

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