AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[<denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Im Auftrag von denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 10:55
> An: jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org; pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org;
> wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org; amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 01:55
> > An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-
> > discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org;
> > amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> > Betreff: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> >
> >
> > Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation inside
> > quotes
> > transformation:
> >
> >     pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
> >       #1:                                                            FAIL (0.08s)
> >         --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
> >         +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations
> >         +   1 Here is a "test citation".[^1]
> >         -   1 Here is a "test citation."[^1]
> >
> > I can look into whether I can target this better so it only affects citations.
> >
> > Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed that the
> > CSL spec just says to bring , and . inside. I can change that.
> 
> Oh, I have probably been confused and confusing... Clearly, regarding citations
> we should of course abide by the spec, and revise that if necessary. (Here, I
> think the problem is not so severe since we usually don't have question marks
> or exclamation marks that are not part of the title. Punctuation that is used to
> separate bibliographic elements are usally periods or commas anyway.)

Addendum: I should have checked the spec first: Yes, it clearly only talks about periods and commas.

> 
> But, in with quotations there are a lot of border cases. Like the behaviour
> prescribed by the Chicago Manual of Style: Put periods and commas inside
> quotation marks in all cases, but question marks and exclamation marks only if
> they appear in the quoted matter, i.e. in the original source. And, with German
> and British: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was
> there in the quoted matter. Sometimes there's even a further restriction:
> Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was there in the
> quoted matter, and if we're quoting a complete sentence.
> 
> Denis
> 
> 
> >
> > <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > >> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> > >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
> > >> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
> > >> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
> > >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> > >> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change
> > >> the attribute punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your
> > >> style to 'false'. That will disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
> > >>
> > >> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want
> > >> to defeat this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
> > >>
> > >> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only
> > >> affect citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall
> > >> at the moment why I implemented it this way.
> > >
> > > I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
> > > 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
> > > 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also
> > > needed for
> > switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?
> > >
> > > FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and
> > > commas,
> > which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made
> > configurable which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the
> > problem brought up by
> > Rik:
> > >
> > >> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks
> > >> of a
> > quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case
> > that the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who,
> > me?”). So, US practice supports both.
> > >> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a
> > >> default position
> > (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
> > >
> > > This brings up the older question of whether we need a more
> > > semantically
> > aware punctuation moving mechanism (see
> > https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already
> > https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
> > > Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode
> > > list, with the first implementation about here:
> > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.ht
> > > ml There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled
> > > (more or less)
> > on this:
> > >
> > >>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> > >  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> > >>
> > >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation
> > >> determines, according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go
> > >> inside or outside the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou,
> > >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.h
> > >> tm
> > >> l)
> > >
> > > I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a
> > > good fit for
> > pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > >
> > >> If someone wants to put up an issue at
> > >> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
> > >> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed
> > >> citations, I'll look into it.
> > >>
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