From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/24262 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: allefeld Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: RFC: Designing Logo of Pandoc Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:15:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <20200103120238.y6ob3i52lpzkyxtb@syenite> <921cd6a2-2d51-4c82-bf29-97627318519f@googlegroups.com> <6af5e7cd-39a3-43c8-ae25-db4972b72b6a@googlegroups.com> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2318_994204780.1579713324316" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="70741"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: pandoc-discuss Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBDL5X6EN3YOBBLMGULYQKGQEB2EICSQ-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Wed Jan 22 18:15:28 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-ot1-f64.google.com ([209.85.210.64]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iuJbE-000IMf-IT for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 18:15:28 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-f64.google.com with SMTP id a12sf154901oto.8 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:15:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=SkJaRRmqXzfF7yNDB2svnP3TJQXxnnoptzCrBspSnSI=; b=e1bvtxwNetoEh22Edl0ClNv5oYzyWdRHztS1wW1740sIuPQNJq4JzWKb3MF8qhsECL mUQ8ZddfIgsRmtxtt30BkkLUpewVolIWzi7iI6sKZ6YOAtBdKFiABgVYcrOc2NvTv/7H WpjC75Izk33BbdBLb46FsH+Mu17Y9OWBk6lNys7gGHDeU3fl6xIhpNfMjHrS/7aOAzUO GfkQ1JQfOYYr3MQ63aXUODq8RfoIWzZQ5ht3rARYcqcTDMV0TNviT5mQP/h0cZTN5Ojp 3ax4qS8p7zcJeTq67V5pcub+ma9PxAOwGsblD3ff779YslW8QORvMTl29uBgLlL0C/FD 06Lw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=SkJaRRmqXzfF7yNDB2svnP3TJQXxnnoptzCrBspSnSI=; b=SApnQDflvSld2WKDKn8Lu7A3BGl10AVdMz+VdsCcXOnT0HT98IBHuFLIzCJy1DMN5r Lc1TrfBCq5+vWEkzaQagVUbJd542MouEgRgbpRriY9yoD928MhAp7aOhER+7lFR6jvE3 rWZC9IcBLSKXWO5BAS+UVCc7pZrwvwfUMM2x8F9on/UKFzNzfNsb23J+OOYEwJvfhpdc dFtu/7YQVvV3XB7LJA5L94kpL4j1h6hCmDqfdBGcbJN+oNxEPH4KYlEUyt4IQixiYSQo QGxnWNGF4wgDIQf9A/XpBcXTbZOF84Ycmfc61znXReX/lyjovYAyyTg9Ge+71SoE/T1U H9yQ== Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXaB3V6GdwgUY8L4ilmeWc65tZpoqX4txLSdyKH1nDIjLlLGmF9 zGwxjZpw+W3xQdXKYuwrMrI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyiRkIJYcWCrx9a8VlYaKXfmYd1DpTr5SHCdMnIF7Go6fpJkAqzGf2qFaYNyghLB8IubWzR0A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:64d:: with SMTP id z13mr7617117oih.104.1579713327505; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:15:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 2002:a9d:4e14:: with SMTP id p20ls7251835otf.4.gmail; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:15:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7448:: with SMTP id p8mr7885729otk.96.1579713325172; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:15:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6af5e7cd-39a3-43c8-ae25-db4972b72b6a-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: c_a-1KBjaw7Xf1+zQB+pC5nmwQ@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:24262 Archived-At: ------=_Part_2318_994204780.1579713324316 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2319_118715708.1579713324316" ------=_Part_2319_118715708.1579713324316 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In case this wasn't clear: I didn't mean to offend Alexis. I apologize if I= =20 did. Regarding graphic design, I'm an amateur as much as anyone else here. If I= =20 make a logo, I think it is amateurish, too. And to state what should be clear: Pandoc belongs to jgm, so whatever he=20 thinks is a good logo, including none at all, is what it should be. John,= =20 if you like Alexis' logo, just go for it and ignore what I said. And I=20 think it's great that you are so responsive to your users' ideas, but if=20 you think a logo is not necessary and the discussion just stressful to you,= =20 close the discussion. In my opinion, one needs at least some talent and experience to design a=20 good logo. But it's not necessary to be a designer to recognize a good one;= =20 logos and graphics are made to appeal to us, the non-designers, so we can= =20 judge a logo on whether it appeals to us. The reasons I don't like Alexis' design: =E2=80=93 I wouldn't edit a font designer's glyph, because if they know the= ir job,=20 all of the details of that glyph have been considered in detail, and=20 changing it can only make it worse. (I have done some editing myself here= =20 before based on the Font Awesome Pilcrow, but I did that because I was=20 asked to do so by others here, and I do think the results were amateurish.)= =20 =E2=80=93 A symbol in such a document box usually stands for a file of a fo= rmat.=20 According to that, Alexis' design would stand for "Pandoc-flavored Markdown= =20 file", but not for Pandoc itself. But of course that's just a convention. =E2=80=93 The border line is much, much thinner than the lines that make up= the=20 glyph, so it's visually clear that two disparate things have been glued=20 together. A logo certainly isn't necessary, Pandoc has done well without it. The=20 reason I joined this discussion is that I needed something to put on a=20 button, and I wanted it to be something official. But I can just put a=20 simple "P" for Pandoc on it, that's not a logo but works the same way as=20 "B" for bold, and that would be ok. In the last years, a lot of open source projects have adopted very nice=20 logos, and I have gotten used to that. Just to take a close example: I=20 think the now quite common though entirely unofficial Markdown logo is=20 brilliantly designed. It is simple, it is consistent concerning line widths= =20 and spacings, it is easily recognizable. I use Markdown and particularly=20 Pandoc's Markdown because it provides exactly the functionality I need. But= =20 having some nice imagery to go along with it is, well, nice. GNU is a=20 monumental project, but come on, this doodle of a gnu?! Same for LaTeX's=20 weird humanoid lion. It screams "nerds only". To be clear: I'm a nerd. It's= =20 not that there's something wrong with being a nerd, it's that it boxes us= =20 in, and the rest of the world continues happily using bad-but-pretty=20 software like Word. C --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/ebcb7508-7ecc-444b-9e6e-c10d76922753%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_2319_118715708.1579713324316 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In case this wasn't clear: I didn't mean to o= ffend Alexis. I apologize if I did.

Regarding grap= hic design, I'm an amateur as much as anyone else here. If I make a log= o, I think it is amateurish, too.

And to state wha= t should be clear: Pandoc belongs to jgm, so whatever he thinks is a good l= ogo, including none at all, is what it should be. John, if you like Alexis&= #39; logo, just go for it and ignore what I said. And I think it's grea= t that you are so responsive to your users' ideas, but if you think a l= ogo is not necessary and the discussion just stressful to you, close the di= scussion.


In my opinion, one needs = at least some talent and experience to design a good logo. But it's not= necessary to be a designer to recognize a good one; logos and graphics are= made to appeal to us, the non-designers, so we can judge a logo on whether= it appeals to us.

The reasons I don't like Al= exis' design:
=E2=80=93 I wouldn't edit a font designer&#= 39;s glyph, because if they know their job, all of the details of that glyp= h have been considered in detail, and changing it can only make it worse. (= I have done some editing myself here before based on the Font Awesome Pilcr= ow, but I did that because I was asked to do so by others here, and I do th= ink the results were amateurish.)=C2=A0
=E2=80=93 A symbol in suc= h a document box usually stands for a file of a format. According to that, = Alexis' design would stand for "Pandoc-flavored Markdown file"= ;, but not for Pandoc itself. But of course that's just a convention.
=E2=80=93 The border line is much, much thinner than the lines tha= t make up the glyph, so it's visually clear that two disparate things h= ave been glued together.

A logo certainly isn'= t necessary, Pandoc has done well without it. The reason I joined this disc= ussion is that I needed something to put on a button, and I wanted it to be= something official. But I can just put a simple "P" for Pandoc o= n it, that's not a logo but works the same way as "B" for bol= d, and that would be ok.

In the last years, a = lot of open source projects have adopted very nice logos, and I have gotten= used to that. Just to take a close example: I think the now quite common t= hough entirely unofficial Markdown logo is brilliantly designed. It is simp= le, it is consistent concerning line widths and spacings, it is easily reco= gnizable. I use Markdown and particularly Pandoc's Markdown because it = provides exactly the functionality I need. But having some nice imagery to = go along with it is, well, nice. GNU is a monumental project, but come on, = this doodle of a gnu?! Same for LaTeX's weird humanoid lion. It screams= "nerds only". To be clear: I'm a nerd. It's not that the= re's something wrong with being a nerd, it's that it boxes us in, a= nd the rest of the world continues happily using bad-but-pretty software li= ke Word.

C

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