issue with "see also" of same and different author

issue with "see also" of same and different author

['Jan' via pandoc-discuss]

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Hi all, 

I have a quick question. 
I'm processing for Chicago Manual of style author date format. 
 pandoc -t docx --csl=.pandoc/csl/chicago-author-date.csl  

I'm using the following syntax 
[@Heller:2007i, 10; see also @Gal:1987; @Heller:1989]. 

for a citation that I want to render as
(Heller 2007, 10; see also Gal 1987; Heller 1989) 

what it does, it gives me: 
(Heller 2007, 10, 1989; see also Gal 1987) 

So it moves the Heller 1989 up front to join the first citation of the same 
author and then, obviously deletes the author last name.  
Is there any way to prevent that (only for this citation)?  
As the other Heller citation should come after the "see also".

Help much appreciated!

all best

Jan



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Re: issue with "see also" of same and different author

[John MacFarlane]

The issue won't arise if you use a style that doesn't sort
citations, obviously, but that may not be an option here.

I have a vague memory that this issue has come up before
in pandoc-citeproc or in CSL, and that there was some solution.

Yes: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/292

Here is the fix I implemented in pandoc-citeproc:

https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/commit/31b463a939d4878d4c83c318976b66d723e70bf5

It's not in the CSL spec, so maybe it's not appropriate to
modify citeproc to behave this way, but it sure is tempting.
So if you feel like putting up a bug report on jgm/citeproc
with links to the URLs mentioned above, please go ahead.


"'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
writes:

> Hi all, 
>
> I have a quick question. 
> I'm processing for Chicago Manual of style author date format. 
>  pandoc -t docx --csl=.pandoc/csl/chicago-author-date.csl  
>
> I'm using the following syntax 
> [@Heller:2007i, 10; see also @Gal:1987; @Heller:1989]. 
>
> for a citation that I want to render as
> (Heller 2007, 10; see also Gal 1987; Heller 1989) 
>
> what it does, it gives me: 
> (Heller 2007, 10, 1989; see also Gal 1987) 
>
> So it moves the Heller 1989 up front to join the first citation of the same 
> author and then, obviously deletes the author last name.  
> Is there any way to prevent that (only for this citation)?  
> As the other Heller citation should come after the "see also".
>
> Help much appreciated!
>
> all best
>
> Jan
>
>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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Re: issue with "see also" of same and different author

['Jan' via pandoc-discuss]

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Thanks so much, John, I opened an issue on github. 

In the meanwhile, as a workaround, is there a way to disable sorting for 
CMS?   

On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 10:28:39 PM UTC-7 John MacFarlane wrote:

>
> The issue won't arise if you use a style that doesn't sort
> citations, obviously, but that may not be an option here.
>
> I have a vague memory that this issue has come up before
> in pandoc-citeproc or in CSL, and that there was some solution.
>
> Yes: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/292
>
> Here is the fix I implemented in pandoc-citeproc:
>
>
> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/commit/31b463a939d4878d4c83c318976b66d723e70bf5
>
> It's not in the CSL spec, so maybe it's not appropriate to
> modify citeproc to behave this way, but it sure is tempting.
> So if you feel like putting up a bug report on jgm/citeproc
> with links to the URLs mentioned above, please go ahead.
>
>
> "'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> writes:
>
> > Hi all, 
> >
> > I have a quick question. 
> > I'm processing for Chicago Manual of style author date format. 
> > pandoc -t docx --csl=.pandoc/csl/chicago-author-date.csl 
> >
> > I'm using the following syntax 
> > [@Heller:2007i, 10; see also @Gal:1987; @Heller:1989]. 
> >
> > for a citation that I want to render as
> > (Heller 2007, 10; see also Gal 1987; Heller 1989) 
> >
> > what it does, it gives me: 
> > (Heller 2007, 10, 1989; see also Gal 1987) 
> >
> > So it moves the Heller 1989 up front to join the first citation of the 
> same 
> > author and then, obviously deletes the author last name. 
> > Is there any way to prevent that (only for this citation)? 
> > As the other Heller citation should come after the "see also".
> >
> > Help much appreciated!
> >
> > all best
> >
> > Jan
> >
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a4c90db8-d468-42c5-b7ac-2162ddc70492n%40googlegroups.com
> .
>

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Re: issue with "see also" of same and different author

[John MacFarlane]

As I noted on the issue, citeproc already does include code
blocking sorting that rearranges prefixes, but this seems not
to work in the case where there is also collapsing (of citations
by same author).  I have to look into why.  Disabling collapsing
in your style could thus be one workaround, though it would mean
that you didn't get collapsing elsewhere.



"'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
writes:

> Thanks so much, John, I opened an issue on github. 
>
> In the meanwhile, as a workaround, is there a way to disable sorting for 
> CMS?   
>
> On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 10:28:39 PM UTC-7 John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>>
>> The issue won't arise if you use a style that doesn't sort
>> citations, obviously, but that may not be an option here.
>>
>> I have a vague memory that this issue has come up before
>> in pandoc-citeproc or in CSL, and that there was some solution.
>>
>> Yes: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/292
>>
>> Here is the fix I implemented in pandoc-citeproc:
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/commit/31b463a939d4878d4c83c318976b66d723e70bf5
>>
>> It's not in the CSL spec, so maybe it's not appropriate to
>> modify citeproc to behave this way, but it sure is tempting.
>> So if you feel like putting up a bug report on jgm/citeproc
>> with links to the URLs mentioned above, please go ahead.
>>
>>
>> "'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
>> writes:
>>
>> > Hi all, 
>> >
>> > I have a quick question. 
>> > I'm processing for Chicago Manual of style author date format. 
>> > pandoc -t docx --csl=.pandoc/csl/chicago-author-date.csl 
>> >
>> > I'm using the following syntax 
>> > [@Heller:2007i, 10; see also @Gal:1987; @Heller:1989]. 
>> >
>> > for a citation that I want to render as
>> > (Heller 2007, 10; see also Gal 1987; Heller 1989) 
>> >
>> > what it does, it gives me: 
>> > (Heller 2007, 10, 1989; see also Gal 1987) 
>> >
>> > So it moves the Heller 1989 up front to join the first citation of the 
>> same 
>> > author and then, obviously deletes the author last name. 
>> > Is there any way to prevent that (only for this citation)? 
>> > As the other Heller citation should come after the "see also".
>> >
>> > Help much appreciated!
>> >
>> > all best
>> >
>> > Jan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a4c90db8-d468-42c5-b7ac-2162ddc70492n%40googlegroups.com
>> .
>>
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/e721f4fa-f560-4ffc-a9a7-2749db068bc6n%40googlegroups.com.

Re: issue with "see also" of same and different author

['Jan' via pandoc-discuss]

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Thanks so much for looking into this. 

I was thinking about another possibility:  Is there perhaps a way to 
disable sorting, but keep the collapsing?  
So that in cases where in a string of citations the same author appears 
with multiple consecutive citations, the repeated author names are omitted, 
but if they appear in a string of citations but not consecutively, they are 
kept?   Does that make sense?  






On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:37:00 AM UTC-7 John MacFarlane wrote:

>
> As I noted on the issue, citeproc already does include code
> blocking sorting that rearranges prefixes, but this seems not
> to work in the case where there is also collapsing (of citations
> by same author). I have to look into why. Disabling collapsing
> in your style could thus be one workaround, though it would mean
> that you didn't get collapsing elsewhere.
>
>
>
> "'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> writes:
>
> > Thanks so much, John, I opened an issue on github. 
> >
> > In the meanwhile, as a workaround, is there a way to disable sorting for 
> > CMS? 
> >
> > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 10:28:39 PM UTC-7 John MacFarlane 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> The issue won't arise if you use a style that doesn't sort
> >> citations, obviously, but that may not be an option here.
> >>
> >> I have a vague memory that this issue has come up before
> >> in pandoc-citeproc or in CSL, and that there was some solution.
> >>
> >> Yes: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/292
> >>
> >> Here is the fix I implemented in pandoc-citeproc:
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/commit/31b463a939d4878d4c83c318976b66d723e70bf5
> >>
> >> It's not in the CSL spec, so maybe it's not appropriate to
> >> modify citeproc to behave this way, but it sure is tempting.
> >> So if you feel like putting up a bug report on jgm/citeproc
> >> with links to the URLs mentioned above, please go ahead.
> >>
> >>
> >> "'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> >> writes:
> >>
> >> > Hi all, 
> >> >
> >> > I have a quick question. 
> >> > I'm processing for Chicago Manual of style author date format. 
> >> > pandoc -t docx --csl=.pandoc/csl/chicago-author-date.csl 
> >> >
> >> > I'm using the following syntax 
> >> > [@Heller:2007i, 10; see also @Gal:1987; @Heller:1989]. 
> >> >
> >> > for a citation that I want to render as
> >> > (Heller 2007, 10; see also Gal 1987; Heller 1989) 
> >> >
> >> > what it does, it gives me: 
> >> > (Heller 2007, 10, 1989; see also Gal 1987) 
> >> >
> >> > So it moves the Heller 1989 up front to join the first citation of 
> the 
> >> same 
> >> > author and then, obviously deletes the author last name. 
> >> > Is there any way to prevent that (only for this citation)? 
> >> > As the other Heller citation should come after the "see also".
> >> >
> >> > Help much appreciated!
> >> >
> >> > all best
> >> >
> >> > Jan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -- 
> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> >> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
> send 
> >> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >> 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a4c90db8-d468-42c5-b7ac-2162ddc70492n%40googlegroups.com
> >> .
> >>
> >
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/e721f4fa-f560-4ffc-a9a7-2749db068bc6n%40googlegroups.com
> .
>

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Re: issue with "see also" of same and different author

[John MacFarlane]

I've just pushed a change to citeproc that allows reordering with
collapsing, but not across the boundary of a citation with a
prefix or suffix.  This should give good results.

"'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
writes:

> Thanks so much for looking into this. 
>
> I was thinking about another possibility:  Is there perhaps a way to 
> disable sorting, but keep the collapsing?  
> So that in cases where in a string of citations the same author appears 
> with multiple consecutive citations, the repeated author names are omitted, 
> but if they appear in a string of citations but not consecutively, they are 
> kept?   Does that make sense?  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 9:37:00 AM UTC-7 John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>>
>> As I noted on the issue, citeproc already does include code
>> blocking sorting that rearranges prefixes, but this seems not
>> to work in the case where there is also collapsing (of citations
>> by same author). I have to look into why. Disabling collapsing
>> in your style could thus be one workaround, though it would mean
>> that you didn't get collapsing elsewhere.
>>
>>
>>
>> "'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
>> writes:
>>
>> > Thanks so much, John, I opened an issue on github. 
>> >
>> > In the meanwhile, as a workaround, is there a way to disable sorting for 
>> > CMS? 
>> >
>> > On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 10:28:39 PM UTC-7 John MacFarlane 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> The issue won't arise if you use a style that doesn't sort
>> >> citations, obviously, but that may not be an option here.
>> >>
>> >> I have a vague memory that this issue has come up before
>> >> in pandoc-citeproc or in CSL, and that there was some solution.
>> >>
>> >> Yes: https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/292
>> >>
>> >> Here is the fix I implemented in pandoc-citeproc:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 
>> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/commit/31b463a939d4878d4c83c318976b66d723e70bf5
>> >>
>> >> It's not in the CSL spec, so maybe it's not appropriate to
>> >> modify citeproc to behave this way, but it sure is tempting.
>> >> So if you feel like putting up a bug report on jgm/citeproc
>> >> with links to the URLs mentioned above, please go ahead.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "'Jan' via pandoc-discuss" <pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
>> >> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > Hi all, 
>> >> >
>> >> > I have a quick question. 
>> >> > I'm processing for Chicago Manual of style author date format. 
>> >> > pandoc -t docx --csl=.pandoc/csl/chicago-author-date.csl 
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm using the following syntax 
>> >> > [@Heller:2007i, 10; see also @Gal:1987; @Heller:1989]. 
>> >> >
>> >> > for a citation that I want to render as
>> >> > (Heller 2007, 10; see also Gal 1987; Heller 1989) 
>> >> >
>> >> > what it does, it gives me: 
>> >> > (Heller 2007, 10, 1989; see also Gal 1987) 
>> >> >
>> >> > So it moves the Heller 1989 up front to join the first citation of 
>> the 
>> >> same 
>> >> > author and then, obviously deletes the author last name. 
>> >> > Is there any way to prevent that (only for this citation)? 
>> >> > As the other Heller citation should come after the "see also".
>> >> >
>> >> > Help much appreciated!
>> >> >
>> >> > all best
>> >> >
>> >> > Jan
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -- 
>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> >> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
>> send 
>> >> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>> >> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> >> 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a4c90db8-d468-42c5-b7ac-2162ddc70492n%40googlegroups.com
>> >> .
>> >>
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/e721f4fa-f560-4ffc-a9a7-2749db068bc6n%40googlegroups.com
>> .
>>
>
> -- 
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