Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[bdh]

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Hello, all,

I would like to be able to remove the parentheses around my citations when 
they're in footnotes. I'm writing in Markdown and converting to PDF using 
Chicago full-note style.

For example, it is common for me to write a footnote like this:

[^history]: For a more complete history of how the category of social or 
structural sin developed in Catholic magisterial teaching, see 
[@pfeil2002]. For a thematic presentation, see [@finn2016, 139--42].

Right now, that renders: "...see (Margaret Pfeil, [etc., etc.])." I would 
like to remove those outer parentheses. There are a number of other similar 
use cases. There are occasional cases where I do want the parentheses, but 
I am happy to produce those manually—i.e., by writing "...as has been amply 
documented ([@whatever1990])."

This might be a question of my template or CSL file rather than pandoc, but 
I figured I'd start here. Thank you for any help!

Brian

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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Hi,
this should work:

[^history]: For a more complete history of how the category of social or 
structural sin developed in Catholic magisterial teaching, see 
@pfeil2002. For a thematic presentation, see @finn2016, 139--42.

I.e., just remove the brackets.

Best,
Denis

Am 29.10.2020 um 14:01 schrieb bdh:
> Hello, all,
>
> I would like to be able to remove the parentheses around my citations 
> when they're in footnotes. I'm writing in Markdown and converting to 
> PDF using Chicago full-note style.
>
> For example, it is common for me to write a footnote like this:
>
> [^history]: For a more complete history of how the category of social 
> or structural sin developed in Catholic magisterial teaching, see 
> [@pfeil2002]. For a thematic presentation, see [@finn2016, 139--42].
>
> Right now, that renders: "...see (Margaret Pfeil, [etc., etc.])." I 
> would like to remove those outer parentheses. There are a number of 
> other similar use cases. There are occasional cases where I do want 
> the parentheses, but I am happy to produce those manually—i.e., by 
> writing "...as has been amply documented ([@whatever1990])."
>
> This might be a question of my template or CSL file rather than 
> pandoc, but I figured I'd start here. Thank you for any help!
>
> Brian
> -- 
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Brian Hamilton]

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Thank you, Denis! I didn’t realize I could do that. But that seems only to move the author’s name outside of the parentheses, rather than eliminating them altogether. So now the same citation renders thus:

“…see Margaret Pfeil (“Title,” Source, etc.)."

In this particular case, that works fine. But in other use cases it’s still a problem. For example, a note like this:

[^note]: Habermas makes a similar point in -@habermas1985, ch 2.

Is rendered like this:

Habermas makes a similar point in (The Theory of Communicative Action, [etc.]).

Perhaps I’m just trying to integrate my citations into the flow of writing in a way that can’t be supported here?

—
Brian Hamilton
Assistant Professor of Religion
Director, College Honors Program
Florida Southern College

To book an appointment: https://bdhamilton.com/contact/
On Oct 29, 2020, 10:00 AM -0400, 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>, wrote:
> Hi,
> this should work:
>
> [^history]: For a more complete history of how the category of social or structural sin developed in Catholic magisterial teaching, see @pfeil2002. For a thematic presentation, see @finn2016, 139--42.
>
> I.e., just remove the brackets.
>
> Best,
> Denis
>
> Am 29.10.2020 um 14:01 schrieb bdh:
> > Hello, all,
> >
> > I would like to be able to remove the parentheses around my citations when they're in footnotes. I'm writing in Markdown and converting to PDF using Chicago full-note style.
> >
> > For example, it is common for me to write a footnote like this:
> >
> > [^history]: For a more complete history of how the category of social or structural sin developed in Catholic magisterial teaching, see [@pfeil2002]. For a thematic presentation, see [@finn2016, 139--42].
> >
> > Right now, that renders: "...see (Margaret Pfeil, [etc., etc.])." I would like to remove those outer parentheses. There are a number of other similar use cases. There are occasional cases where I do want the parentheses, but I am happy to produce those manually—i.e., by writing "...as has been amply documented ([@whatever1990])."
> >
> > This might be a question of my template or CSL file rather than pandoc, but I figured I'd start here. Thank you for any help!
> >
> > Brian
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/79730796-d2f6-4174-81fd-fcf12472c5c3n%40googlegroups.com.
>
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

An idiomatic way to do this would be not to use a footnote, but
to use prefixes and suffixes in your citation:

[for a more complete history of how the category
of social or structuarl sin developed..., see @pfeil2002.
For a thematic presnetation, see @finn2016, 139--42].

In a footnote style, like chicago-fullnote, this will be
put into a footnote automatically.

But the advantage is that you could easily switch to another
citation style.

bdh <bdhamilton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Hello, all,
>
> I would like to be able to remove the parentheses around my citations when 
> they're in footnotes. I'm writing in Markdown and converting to PDF using 
> Chicago full-note style.
>
> For example, it is common for me to write a footnote like this:
>
> [^history]: For a more complete history of how the category of social or 
> structural sin developed in Catholic magisterial teaching, see 
> [@pfeil2002]. For a thematic presentation, see [@finn2016, 139--42].
>
> Right now, that renders: "...see (Margaret Pfeil, [etc., etc.])." I would 
> like to remove those outer parentheses. There are a number of other similar 
> use cases. There are occasional cases where I do want the parentheses, but 
> I am happy to produce those manually—i.e., by writing "...as has been amply 
> documented ([@whatever1990])."
>
> This might be a question of my template or CSL file rather than pandoc, but 
> I figured I'd start here. Thank you for any help!
>
> Brian
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

Funny, I'm just running into this problem myself, preparing
something for publication with a note style!

I see what you mean, the parentheses are really not what
you want in this case.

On the other hand, a comma isn't ALWAYS what you want
either.

I need to think harder about  what to do here.

Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

Well, some thoughts about this complex of problems:

In simple cases, one can always resort to the syntax you've posted in 
your other mail:

[for a more complete history of how the category
of social or structuarl sin developed..., see @pfeil2002.
For a thematic presnetation, see @finn2016, 139--42].

But that is not really convenient when using more complex narrative 
footnotes. Also, you may want to have the citation always appear in a 
note, regardless of citation style. So, I think there should be a way to 
handle this problem.

Then, style guides may differ in what they prescribe for such citations. 
In Chicago note styles these should just be rendered without any special 
formatting, no affixes and such (I think this is what citeproc-js does 
currently). In Chicago author date styles they are rendered just as in 
text citations. Other note styles may require citations in notes to 
appear in parentheses. These kind of distinctions introduce a fair 
amount of complexity. For CSL this is especially problematic: CSL aims 
to enable seemless switching between different citation styles.

Biblatex uses a different approach here: it first defines the basic 
macros (cite), with more complex ones being built top of that (textcite, 
parencite, autocite,  smartcite, etc.). So here, a user can use style 
agnostic commands (autocite) together with commands that make sense in a 
specific citation.

The problem has been discussed in the CSL community before, but there's 
not really a solution at the moment, see e.g. 
https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/365

You could perhaps add a new citation mode "bare" or "plain" of these 
kind of requirements. I citation with this mode would be rendered as a 
default citation, but it would be rendered without the affixes, and it 
wouldn't be wrapped in a footnote. (But what should happen with these 
citations when switching from a note style to an in-text style?)

Best,
Denis



Am 30.10.2020 um 02:04 schrieb John MacFarlane:
> Funny, I'm just running into this problem myself, preparing
> something for publication with a note style!
>
> I see what you mean, the parentheses are really not what
> you want in this case.
>
> On the other hand, a comma isn't ALWAYS what you want
> either.
>
> I need to think harder about  what to do here.
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Brian Hamilton]

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John and Denis: thanks for giving this some thought! This is all far, far beyond my technical competence, but I’ll watch the discussion with interest.

Brian
On Oct 30, 2020, 4:57 AM -0400, Denis Maier , wrote:
> Well, some thoughts about this complex of problems:
>
> In simple cases, one can always resort to the syntax you've posted in
> your other mail:
>
> [for a more complete history of how the category
> of social or structuarl sin developed..., see @pfeil2002.
> For a thematic presnetation, see @finn2016, 139--42].
>
> But that is not really convenient when using more complex narrative
> footnotes. Also, you may want to have the citation always appear in a
> note, regardless of citation style. So, I think there should be a way to
> handle this problem.
>
> Then, style guides may differ in what they prescribe for such citations.
> In Chicago note styles these should just be rendered without any special
> formatting, no affixes and such (I think this is what citeproc-js does
> currently). In Chicago author date styles they are rendered just as in
> text citations. Other note styles may require citations in notes to
> appear in parentheses. These kind of distinctions introduce a fair
> amount of complexity. For CSL this is especially problematic: CSL aims
> to enable seemless switching between different citation styles.
>
> Biblatex uses a different approach here: it first defines the basic
> macros (cite), with more complex ones being built top of that (textcite,
> parencite, autocite,  smartcite, etc.). So here, a user can use style
> agnostic commands (autocite) together with commands that make sense in a
> specific citation.
>
> The problem has been discussed in the CSL community before, but there's
> not really a solution at the moment, see e.g.
> https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/365
>
> You could perhaps add a new citation mode "bare" or "plain" of these
> kind of requirements. I citation with this mode would be rendered as a
> default citation, but it would be rendered without the affixes, and it
> wouldn't be wrapped in a footnote. (But what should happen with these
> citations when switching from a note style to an in-text style?)
>
> Best,
> Denis
>
>
>
> Am 30.10.2020 um 02:04 schrieb John MacFarlane:
> > Funny, I'm just running into this problem myself, preparing
> > something for publication with a note style!
> >
> > I see what you mean, the parentheses are really not what
> > you want in this case.
> >
> > On the other hand, a comma isn't ALWAYS what you want
> > either.
> >
> > I need to think harder about what to do here.
> >
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss]

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Though using citations with, possibly long, prefixes and suffixes rather than footnotes in the markdown source seems to work very well in most cases, there is one problem that makes getting the exact same output format as the one requested in the original post impossible: citations have to be separated by a semicolon, and if they aren’t, the output becomes garbled. Technically, this isn’t a bug (the pandoc manual: “Markdown citations go inside square brackets and are separated by semicolons”), but I wonder whether this requirement could be relaxed.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

"'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss"
<pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Though using citations with, possibly long, prefixes and suffixes rather than footnotes in the markdown source seems to work very well in most cases, there is one problem that makes getting the exact same output format as the one requested in the original post impossible: citations have to be separated by a semicolon, and if they aren’t, the output becomes garbled. Technically, this isn’t a bug (the pandoc manual: “Markdown citations go inside square brackets and are separated by semicolons”), but I wonder whether this requirement could be relaxed.

Maybe -- what would you suggest as an alternative?
We need some unambiguous way of marking the divider between
consecutive citations.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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What about double bar || ?
-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: John MacFarlane <jgm@berkeley.edu> Datum: 30.10.20  17:40  (GMT+01:00) An: 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes "'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss"<pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:> Though using citations with, possibly long, prefixes and suffixes rather than footnotes in the markdown source seems to work very well in most cases, there is one problem that makes getting the exact same output format as the one requested in the original post impossible: citations have to be separated by a semicolon, and if they aren’t, the output becomes garbled. Technically, this isn’t a bug (the pandoc manual: “Markdown citations go inside square brackets and are separated by semicolons”), but I wonder whether this requirement could be relaxed.Maybe -- what would you suggest as an alternative?We need some unambiguous way of marking the divider betweenconsecutive citations.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF5qMzOjczn9V@public.gmane.org view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m27dr7r7kt.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Brian Hamilton]

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One sidenote: long intraparagraph citations would work adequately, I think, for some cases, but descriptive footnotes in the humanities sometimes have a way of going very, very long. It would be pretty important to me as  a writer that the solution still allow me to drop these notes into named footnotes in my markdown source.

—
Brian Hamilton
Assistant Professor of Religion
Director, College Honors Program
Florida Southern College

To book an appointment: https://bdhamilton.com/contact/
On Oct 30, 2020, 12:50 PM -0400, 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>, wrote:
> What about double bar || ?
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> Datum: 30.10.20 17:40 (GMT+01:00)
> An: 'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes
>
> "'Nick Bart' via pandoc-discuss"
> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > Though using citations with, possibly long, prefixes and suffixes rather than footnotes in the markdown source seems to work very well in most cases, there is one problem that makes getting the exact same output format as the one requested in the original post impossible: citations have to be separated by a semicolon, and if they aren’t, the output becomes garbled. Technically, this isn’t a bug (the pandoc manual: “Markdown citations go inside square brackets and are separated by semicolons”), but I wonder whether this requirement could be relaxed.
>
> Maybe -- what would you suggest as an alternative?
> We need some unambiguous way of marking the divider between
> consecutive citations.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

I know what you mean. Another drawback of moving the citations
intraparagraph is that, if you switch to an author-date style,
you might want these long discursive citations in footnotes.

I's really hard to achieve the ambition of seamless switching between
note and author-date citation styles.


Brian Hamilton <bdhamilton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> One sidenote: long intraparagraph citations would work adequately, I think, for some cases, but descriptive footnotes in the humanities sometimes have a way of going very, very long. It would be pretty important to me as  a writer that the solution still allow me to drop these notes into named footnotes in my markdown source.
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Joseph Reagle]

On 10/30/20 4:57 AM, 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss wrote:
> Biblatex uses a different approach here: 
> it first defines the basic macros (cite), with more complex ones being built top of that (textcite, parencite, autocite,  smartcite, etc.). So here, a user can use style agnostic commands (autocite) together with commands that make sense in a specific citation. 

I used to use biblatex (back before Philipp Lehman mysteriously disappeared), and while I appreciated its power -- and used these commands -- I was a quick convert to pandoc's markdown for its simplicity.

I've written a couple of books now by making do with citation prefixes and suffixes:

```
[My characterization of the hacker "ethos" is different but compatible with that of others, including @Levy2010hhc; @Raymond2001hbh; @Thomas2002hc; @Suiter2013wh; @Eschenroeder2015plh; @Thomas2015lhc].
```

or notes with "naked" cites:

```
^[A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See @ChoeEtal2014uqs, p. 5; for a review of motivations see @Watson2013ldp, p. 9; see also @SharonZandbergen2017dfq]
```

This approach isn't transparently translatable across all style guides and CSL files, but it's hard to imagine something that remains simple doing so...

-------------

BTW: A hack on pandoc citations that I have in my wrapper is the "suppressible" cite, prefixed with `#`. I keep these citations handy for my own reference and can generate the mega-cited version or trimmed version of a document via a switch in the YAML metadata or command line argument.

```
For Buchheit, "Hacking is much bigger and more important than clever bits of code in a computer---it's how we create the future" [#@BuchheitLivingston2007pbg; @Buchheit2009apk; on Buchheit and life hacking, see @Thomas2015lhc, p. 44].
``` 

Has anyone else ever had use for such a thing?

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Denis Maier]

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Joseph schrieb am Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 um 20:42:04 UTC+1:

>
> On 10/30/20 4:57 AM, 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss wrote: 
> > Biblatex uses a different approach here: 
> > it first defines the basic macros (cite), with more complex ones being 
> built top of that (textcite, parencite, autocite, smartcite, etc.). So 
> here, a user can use style agnostic commands (autocite) together with 
> commands that make sense in a specific citation. 
>
> I used to use biblatex (back before Philipp Lehman mysteriously 
> disappeared), and while I appreciated its power -- and used these commands 
> -- I was a quick convert to pandoc's markdown for its simplicity. 
>
> I've written a couple of books now by making do with citation prefixes and 
> suffixes: 
>
> ``` 
> [My characterization of the hacker "ethos" is different but compatible 
> with that of others, including @Levy2010hhc; @Raymond2001hbh; 
> @Thomas2002hc; @Suiter2013wh; @Eschenroeder2015plh; @Thomas2015lhc]. 
> ``` 
>
> or notes with "naked" cites: 
>
> ``` 
> ^[A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of 
> (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences 
> (curiosity, fun, and learning). See @ChoeEtal2014uqs, p. 5; for a review of 
> motivations see @Watson2013ldp, p. 9; see also @SharonZandbergen2017dfq] 
> ``` 
>

I suggested that above as well. But I was told that this won't work with 
note styles? This seems to wrap titles in parentheses. Has this behavior 
changed with the new citeproc?
 

>
>
>
> ------------- 
>
> BTW: A hack on pandoc citations that I have in my wrapper is the 
> "suppressible" cite, prefixed with `#`. I keep these citations handy for my 
> own reference and can generate the mega-cited version or trimmed version of 
> a document via a switch in the YAML metadata or command line argument. 
>
> ``` 
> For Buchheit, "Hacking is much bigger and more important than clever bits 
> of code in a computer---it's how we create the future" 
> [#@BuchheitLivingston2007pbg; @Buchheit2009apk; on Buchheit and life 
> hacking, see @Thomas2015lhc, p. 44]. 
> ``` 
>
> Has anyone else ever had use for such a thing? 
>

Yes, that looks quite useful.

Best,
Denis

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Joseph Reagle]

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On 10/30/20 6:16 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
> But I was told that this won't work with note styles? This seems to wrap titles in parentheses. Has this behavior changed with the new citeproc?

That imperfect behavior *is* consistent across versions. I used the latter ("in-text" citations, where title is within parens, within a note) so rarely that it's something I felt comfortable letting the copy-editor perfect. 

This is what pandoc produced:

https://reagle.org/joseph/2016/lh/06-health.html#fn6

6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe et al. (“Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems - CHI ’14, 2014, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372), p. 5; for a review of motivations see Sara M. Watson (“Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (Master’s thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified), p. 9; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen (“From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090)↩

And this is what a professional copy editor did to it:

https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/razodglh/release/2#r3186735723

6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe, Nicole B. Lee, Bongshin Lee, Wanda Pratt, and Julie A. Kientz, “Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” in CHI ’14: Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (New York: Association for Computing Machinery, 2014), 1147, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372; for a review of motivations, see Sara M. Watson, “Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (MSc thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), 9, http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen, “From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

Thanks, this is helpful.

I've made a change to pandoc which I think I'm going to push in a little
while.  I've been testing it on a 75-page document that I'm
converting to a format with fullnote citations, and with this
change the results are much better.

The change is as follows:

Inside a footnote, normal citations like [@foo] are still rendered in
parentheses.

But author-in-text citations like @foo are rendered with the
author's name, then a comma, then the rest.

This does seem to be a big improvement, and the result should
require less manual editing.

Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> writes:

> On 10/30/20 6:16 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
>> But I was told that this won't work with note styles? This seems to wrap titles in parentheses. Has this behavior changed with the new citeproc?
>
> That imperfect behavior *is* consistent across versions. I used the latter ("in-text" citations, where title is within parens, within a note) so rarely that it's something I felt comfortable letting the copy-editor perfect. 
>
> This is what pandoc produced:
>
> https://reagle.org/joseph/2016/lh/06-health.html#fn6
>
> 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe et al. (“Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems - CHI ’14, 2014, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372), p. 5; for a review of motivations see Sara M. Watson (“Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (Master’s thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified), p. 9; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen (“From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090)↩
>
> And this is what a professional copy editor did to it:
>
> https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/razodglh/release/2#r3186735723
>
> 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe, Nicole B. Lee, Bongshin Lee, Wanda Pratt, and Julie A. Kientz, “Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” in CHI ’14: Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (New York: Association for Computing Machinery, 2014), 1147, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372; for a review of motivations, see Sara M. Watson, “Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (MSc thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), 9, http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen, “From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090.
>
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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Thanks John, that's absolutely an improvement.However, I am still unsure whether a new mode `plain` or so would be an even better solution. I imagine there a situations where you want "author, the rest", and in other situations you'll want "author (the rest)". Also, how does your change affect author date styles and switching between styles?What do you think?
-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: John MacFarlane <jgm@berkeley.edu> Datum: 01.11.20  19:33  (GMT+01:00) An: Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes Thanks, this is helpful.I've made a change to pandoc which I think I'm going to push in a littlewhile.  I've been testing it on a 75-page document that I'mconverting to a format with fullnote citations, and with thischange the results are much better.The change is as follows:Inside a footnote, normal citations like [@foo] are still rendered inparentheses.But author-in-text citations like @foo are rendered with theauthor's name, then a comma, then the rest.This does seem to be a big improvement, and the result shouldrequire less manual editing.Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> writes:> On 10/30/20 6:16 PM, Denis Maier wrote:>> But I was told that this won't work with note styles? This seems to wrap titles in parentheses. Has this behavior changed with the new citeproc?>> That imperfect behavior *is* consistent across versions. I used the latter ("in-text" citations, where title is within parens, within a note) so rarely that it's something I felt comfortable letting the copy-editor perfect. >> This is what pandoc produced:>> https://reagle.org/joseph/2016/lh/06-health.html#fn6>> 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe et al. (“Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems - CHI ’14, 2014, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372), p. 5; for a review of motivations see Sara M. Watson (“Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (Master’s thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified), p. 9; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen (“From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090)↩>> And this is what a professional copy editor did to it:>> https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/razodglh/release/2#r3186735723>> 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe, Nicole B. Lee, Bongshin Lee, Wanda Pratt, and Julie A. Kientz, “Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” in CHI ’14: Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (New York: Association for Computing Machinery, 2014), 1147, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372; for a review of motivations, see Sara M. Watson, “Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (MSc thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), 9, http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen, “From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090.>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a49cde1d-0016-a4fb-0d99-655cb88810fa%40reagle.org.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/pandoc-discuss/8YoFxeexDWs/unsubscribe.To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF5qMzOjczn9V@public.gmane.org view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m2sg9tlygo.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

I should have mentioned...this only affects note styles.

"'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss"
<pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Thanks John, that's absolutely an improvement.However, I am still unsure whether a new mode `plain` or so would be an even better solution. I imagine there a situations where you want "author, the rest", and in other situations you'll want "author (the rest)". Also, how does your change affect author date styles and switching between styles?What do you think?

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Brian Hamilton]

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Thank you so much, John! That sounds like a straightforward fix, and it’ll solve my problem entirely.
On Nov 1, 2020, 1:32 PM -0500, John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>, wrote:
>
> Thanks, this is helpful.
>
> I've made a change to pandoc which I think I'm going to push in a little
> while. I've been testing it on a 75-page document that I'm
> converting to a format with fullnote citations, and with this
> change the results are much better.
>
> The change is as follows:
>
> Inside a footnote, normal citations like [@foo] are still rendered in
> parentheses.
>
> But author-in-text citations like @foo are rendered with the
> author's name, then a comma, then the rest.
>
> This does seem to be a big improvement, and the result should
> require less manual editing.
>
> Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > On 10/30/20 6:16 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
> > > But I was told that this won't work with note styles? This seems to wrap titles in parentheses. Has this behavior changed with the new citeproc?
> >
> > That imperfect behavior *is* consistent across versions. I used the latter ("in-text" citations, where title is within parens, within a note) so rarely that it's something I felt comfortable letting the copy-editor perfect.
> >
> > This is what pandoc produced:
> >
> > https://reagle.org/joseph/2016/lh/06-health.html#fn6
> >
> > 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe et al. (“Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems - CHI ’14, 2014, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372), p. 5; for a review of motivations see Sara M. Watson (“Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (Master’s thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified), p. 9; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen (“From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090)↩
> >
> > And this is what a professional copy editor did to it:
> >
> > https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/razodglh/release/2#r3186735723
> >
> > 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe, Nicole B. Lee, Bongshin Lee, Wanda Pratt, and Julie A. Kientz, “Understanding Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” in CHI ’14: Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (New York: Association for Computing Machinery, 2014), 1147, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372; for a review of motivations, see Sara M. Watson, “Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (MSc thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), 9, http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen, “From Data Fetishism to Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
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>
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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Ok.Just one caveat then: this makes switching between note styles and author date styles more difficult. For a note style you'll probably use the in text variant in footnotes more often. But for author date styles the opposite will be true. If so, wouldn't it make more sense to just render [@doe] without parentheses? Maybe this has other downsides.
-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: John MacFarlane <jgm@berkeley.edu> Datum: 01.11.20  22:44  (GMT+01:00) An: 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes I should have mentioned...this only affects note styles."'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss"<pandoc-discuss@googlegroups.com> writes:> Thanks John, that's absolutely an improvement.However, I am still unsure whether a new mode `plain` or so would be an even better solution. I imagine there a situations where you want "author, the rest", and in other situations you'll want "author (the rest)". Also, how does your change affect author date styles and switching between styles?What do you think?-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m2pn4wn46n.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

"'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss"
<pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Ok.Just one caveat then: this makes switching between note styles and author date styles more difficult. For a note style you'll probably use the in text variant in footnotes more often. But for author date styles the opposite will be true. If so, wouldn't it make more sense to just render [@doe] without parentheses? Maybe this has other downsides.

I'm tempted to do that.  But you still need some punctuation,
at least in certain cases.

With @doe, we know that the author's name always comes first,
so then we can place a comma and the rest.

With [@doe], the punctuation is more complicated.
If it's at the beginning of a sentence, or after a comma
or semicolon, no punctuation is needed.  But if it's
after a word and a space, we need to replace the space
with comma + space. There may be other cases too, and
I'm less sure of myself.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

Am 02.11.2020 um 19:59 schrieb John MacFarlane:
> "'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss"
> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
>> Ok.Just one caveat then: this makes switching between note styles and author date styles more difficult. For a note style you'll probably use the in text variant in footnotes more often. But for author date styles the opposite will be true. If so, wouldn't it make more sense to just render [@doe] without parentheses? Maybe this has other downsides.
> I'm tempted to do that.  But you still need some punctuation,
> at least in certain cases.
>
> With @doe, we know that the author's name always comes first,
> so then we can place a comma and the rest.
>
> With [@doe], the punctuation is more complicated.
> If it's at the beginning of a sentence, or after a comma
> or semicolon, no punctuation is needed.  But if it's
> after a word and a space, we need to replace the space
> with comma + space. There may be other cases too, and
> I'm less sure of myself.
Arrgh, I see. It's really nasty. Perhaps we should construct the 
requirements bottom up, starting with a couple of examples.

"This is a quotation" [@doe].
On this and that see @doe.

Author-date is easy:
"This is a quotation" (Doe 2020).
On this and that see Doe (2020).

Note:
"This is a quotation." Doe, Title, etc.
On this and that see Doe, Title, etc.

That would speak for just dropping the parentheses in both (!) cases?

OTOH, a writer may want to integrate:
"This is a quotation" (Doe, Title, etc.), integrated in the flow of the 
text.
"This is a quotation", integrated in the flow of the text, Doe, Title, etc.

In author date styles, they would appear this way:
"This is a quotation" (Doe 2020), integrated in the flow of the text.
"This is a quotation", integrated in the flow of the text (Doe 2020).

How does that fit into the picture? It seems the behaviour is slightly 
inconsistent across styles.

Author-date styles are simpler than notes styles, so it could be a 
solution to add citation modes/commands that have a special meaning only 
when using a note style, e.g. to deal with the more special cases. In 
author date styles they'd just be aliases for the regular modes.

The other question really is if there is a consistent behaviour across 
note styles. There may styles that require:
"This is a quotation" (Doe, Title, etc).
instead of:
"This is a quotation." Doe, Title, etc.

Denis

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[jcr]

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I agree that this would be really helpful. I wrote a book in pandoc, using 
a notes style and LaTeX for formatting, and I had to use raw LaTeX whenever 
I wanted a citation in a footnote that wasn't in parentheses. Once you've 
sorted out how this will work with CSL, it would be good to get support for 
this in LaTeX output as well, using \cite instead of \autocite for bare 
citations.

On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 7:32:57 PM UTC+1 John MacFarlane wrote:

>
> Thanks, this is helpful.
>
> I've made a change to pandoc which I think I'm going to push in a little
> while. I've been testing it on a 75-page document that I'm
> converting to a format with fullnote citations, and with this
> change the results are much better.
>
> The change is as follows:
>
> Inside a footnote, normal citations like [@foo] are still rendered in
> parentheses.
>
> But author-in-text citations like @foo are rendered with the
> author's name, then a comma, then the rest.
>
> This does seem to be a big improvement, and the result should
> require less manual editing.
>
> Joseph Reagle <josep...-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > On 10/30/20 6:16 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
> >> But I was told that this won't work with note styles? This seems to 
> wrap titles in parentheses. Has this behavior changed with the new citeproc?
> >
> > That imperfect behavior *is* consistent across versions. I used the 
> latter ("in-text" citations, where title is within parens, within a note) 
> so rarely that it's something I felt comfortable letting the copy-editor 
> perfect. 
> >
> > This is what pandoc produced:
> >
> > https://reagle.org/joseph/2016/lh/06-health.html#fn6
> >
> > 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement 
> of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences 
> (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe et al. (“Understanding 
> Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” 
> Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing 
> Systems - CHI ’14, 2014, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372), p. 5; 
> for a review of motivations see Sara M. Watson (“Living with Data: Personal 
> Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (Master’s thesis, University of Oxford, 
> 2013), 
> http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified), 
> p. 9; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen (“From Data Fetishism to 
> Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” 
> New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, 
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090)↩
> >
> > And this is what a professional copy editor did to it:
> >
> > https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/razodglh/release/2#r3186735723
> >
> > 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement 
> of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences 
> (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe, Nicole B. Lee, 
> Bongshin Lee, Wanda Pratt, and Julie A. Kientz, “Understanding 
> Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” 
> in CHI ’14: Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors 
> in Computing Systems (New York: Association for Computing Machinery, 2014), 
> 1147, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372; for a review of 
> motivations, see Sara M. Watson, “Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of 
> the Quantified Self” (MSc thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), 9, 
> http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified; 
> see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen, “From Data Fetishism to 
> Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” 
> New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, 
> http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090.
> >
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a49cde1d-0016-a4fb-0d99-655cb88810fa%40reagle.org
> .
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

I think we could change the LaTeX writer to use `\cite` instead
of `\autocite` to render citations in footnotes.  That's
separate from this CSL issue.  If that seems a good idea,
you might submit a bug report on our tracker. 


jcr <ffi.appdev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> I agree that this would be really helpful. I wrote a book in pandoc, using 
> a notes style and LaTeX for formatting, and I had to use raw LaTeX whenever 
> I wanted a citation in a footnote that wasn't in parentheses. Once you've 
> sorted out how this will work with CSL, it would be good to get support for 
> this in LaTeX output as well, using \cite instead of \autocite for bare 
> citations.
>
> On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 7:32:57 PM UTC+1 John MacFarlane wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks, this is helpful.
>>
>> I've made a change to pandoc which I think I'm going to push in a little
>> while. I've been testing it on a 75-page document that I'm
>> converting to a format with fullnote citations, and with this
>> change the results are much better.
>>
>> The change is as follows:
>>
>> Inside a footnote, normal citations like [@foo] are still rendered in
>> parentheses.
>>
>> But author-in-text citations like @foo are rendered with the
>> author's name, then a comma, then the rest.
>>
>> This does seem to be a big improvement, and the result should
>> require less manual editing.
>>
>> Joseph Reagle <josep...-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> writes:
>>
>> > On 10/30/20 6:16 PM, Denis Maier wrote:
>> >> But I was told that this won't work with note styles? This seems to 
>> wrap titles in parentheses. Has this behavior changed with the new citeproc?
>> >
>> > That imperfect behavior *is* consistent across versions. I used the 
>> latter ("in-text" citations, where title is within parens, within a note) 
>> so rarely that it's something I felt comfortable letting the copy-editor 
>> perfect. 
>> >
>> > This is what pandoc produced:
>> >
>> > https://reagle.org/joseph/2016/lh/06-health.html#fn6
>> >
>> > 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement 
>> of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences 
>> (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe et al. (“Understanding 
>> Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” 
>> Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors in Computing 
>> Systems - CHI ’14, 2014, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372), p. 5; 
>> for a review of motivations see Sara M. Watson (“Living with Data: Personal 
>> Data Uses of the Quantified Self” (Master’s thesis, University of Oxford, 
>> 2013), 
>> http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified), 
>> p. 9; see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen (“From Data Fetishism to 
>> Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” 
>> New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, 
>> http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090)↩
>> >
>> > And this is what a professional copy editor did to it:
>> >
>> > https://hackinglife.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/razodglh/release/2#r3186735723
>> >
>> > 6. A survey of self-trackers discerned three main motives: improvement 
>> of (1) health and (2) other life areas and (3) having new life experiences 
>> (curiosity, fun, and learning). See Eun Kyoung Choe, Nicole B. Lee, 
>> Bongshin Lee, Wanda Pratt, and Julie A. Kientz, “Understanding 
>> Quantified-Selfers’ Practices in Collecting and Exploring Personal Data,” 
>> in CHI ’14: Proceedings of the 32nd Annual ACM Conference on Human Factors 
>> in Computing Systems (New York: Association for Computing Machinery, 2014), 
>> 1147, https://doi.org/10.1145/2556288.2557372; for a review of 
>> motivations, see Sara M. Watson, “Living with Data: Personal Data Uses of 
>> the Quantified Self” (MSc thesis, University of Oxford, 2013), 9, 
>> http://www.saramwatson.com/blog/living-with-data-personal-data-uses-of-the-quantified; 
>> see also Tamar Sharon and Dorien Zandbergen, “From Data Fetishism to 
>> Quantifying Selves: Self-Tracking Practices and the Other Values of Data,” 
>> New Media & Society 19, no. 11 (2017): 1695–1709, 
>> http://dx.doi.org/10.1177/1461444816636090.
>> >
>> > -- 
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/a49cde1d-0016-a4fb-0d99-655cb88810fa%40reagle.org
>> .
>>
>
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

Though on second thought we *would* have to figure out how
to punctuate in this case, too.

John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> writes:

> I think we could change the LaTeX writer to use `\cite` instead
> of `\autocite` to render citations in footnotes.  That's
> separate from this CSL issue.  If that seems a good idea,
> you might submit a bug report on our tracker. 
>

Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[FI Apps]

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I’m not sure what punctuation you have in mind, so I’ll explain more fully why I thought the issues were connected. Here I have three cases: a regular citation in the body, a regular citation in a footnote, and a bare citation in a footnote:

$ echo 'Foo says, "Lorem"[@foo, 12]. Others disagree^["Ipsum" [@bar, 34]. See also @baz [56].]' | pandoc --biblatex -t latex
Foo says, ``Lorem''\autocite[12]{foo}. Others disagree\footnote{``Ipsum''
  \autocite[34]{bar}. See also \textcite[56]{baz}.}

The third case is where I want \cite. The fact that I got a \textcite there was a surprise to me. I thought pandoc produced \autocite in that case too, but I haven’t tested it recently (and maybe I hadn’t tried bare citations).

If citeproc is going to retain the new behavior introduced in 2.11.1 for notes styles, then I think pandoc should use \cite in that case for LaTeX output, so that CSL and LaTeX output are similar. But if the new citeproc behavior is still in flux, then I don’t think the LaTeX behavior should change until it has stabilized. Looking at this again, I could probably get what I want by using a Lua filter to replace AuthorInText citations with \cite as raw LaTeX.

> On 3 Nov 2020, at 19:01, John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Though on second thought we *would* have to figure out how
> to punctuate in this case, too.
> 
> John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> writes:
> 
>> I think we could change the LaTeX writer to use `\cite` instead
>> of `\autocite` to render citations in footnotes.  That's
>> separate from this CSL issue.  If that seems a good idea,
>> you might submit a bug report on our tracker. 
>> 

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

FI Apps <ffi.appdev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> I’m not sure what punctuation you have in mind, so I’ll explain more fully why I thought the issues were connected. Here I have three cases: a regular citation in the body, a regular citation in a footnote, and a bare citation in a footnote:
>
> $ echo 'Foo says, "Lorem"[@foo, 12]. Others disagree^["Ipsum" [@bar, 34]. See also @baz [56].]' | pandoc --biblatex -t latex
> Foo says, ``Lorem''\autocite[12]{foo}. Others disagree\footnote{``Ipsum''
>   \autocite[34]{bar}. See also \textcite[56]{baz}.}
>
> The third case is where I want \cite. The fact that I got a \textcite there was a surprise to me. I thought pandoc produced \autocite in that case too, but I haven’t tested it recently (and maybe I hadn’t tried bare citations).

Why a surprise?  @baz is pandoc's format for an in-text citation.
Compare [@baz] for a normal citation.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[FI Apps]

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Yes, I know it's an in-text citation, but I t thought I had tried all the
options to get a citation that wasn't in parentheses. So (1) I didn't try
in-text citations a couple of years ago, or (2) although I got a different
result with an in-text citation, it still had undesired parentheses, and I
then forgot about it because it wasn't what I was looking for, or (3)
pandoc didn't produce \textcite back then. Whatever happened a few years
ago, today it was a surprise.

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 8:13 PM John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> FI Apps <ffi.appdev-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > I’m not sure what punctuation you have in mind, so I’ll explain more
> fully why I thought the issues were connected. Here I have three cases: a
> regular citation in the body, a regular citation in a footnote, and a bare
> citation in a footnote:
> >
> > $ echo 'Foo says, "Lorem"[@foo, 12]. Others disagree^["Ipsum" [@bar,
> 34]. See also @baz [56].]' | pandoc --biblatex -t latex
> > Foo says, ``Lorem''\autocite[12]{foo}. Others disagree\footnote{``Ipsum''
> >   \autocite[34]{bar}. See also \textcite[56]{baz}.}
> >
> > The third case is where I want \cite. The fact that I got a \textcite
> there was a surprise to me. I thought pandoc produced \autocite in that
> case too, but I haven’t tested it recently (and maybe I hadn’t tried bare
> citations).
>
> Why a surprise?  @baz is pandoc's format for an in-text citation.
> Compare [@baz] for a normal citation.
>
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

John, I've seen you've already implemented that change in the current 
release. Just one note: I've realized that citeproc-js behaves 
differently here: it just omits the parentheses on regular citations in 
footnotes. That may be due to the fact that "author in-text" citations 
are not a Zotero feature yet, but I thought it may be worth pointing 
that out anyway. Don't know though if that discrepancy has any real 
consequenses.

Best,
Denis


Am 02.11.2020 um 19:59 schrieb John MacFarlane:
> "'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss"
> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
>> Ok.Just one caveat then: this makes switching between note styles and author date styles more difficult. For a note style you'll probably use the in text variant in footnotes more often. But for author date styles the opposite will be true. If so, wouldn't it make more sense to just render [@doe] without parentheses? Maybe this has other downsides.
> I'm tempted to do that.  But you still need some punctuation,
> at least in certain cases.
>
> With @doe, we know that the author's name always comes first,
> so then we can place a comma and the rest.
>
> With [@doe], the punctuation is more complicated.
> If it's at the beginning of a sentence, or after a comma
> or semicolon, no punctuation is needed.  But if it's
> after a word and a space, we need to replace the space
> with comma + space. There may be other cases too, and
> I'm less sure of myself.
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

Denis Maier <denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> John, I've seen you've already implemented that change in the current 
> release. Just one note: I've realized that citeproc-js behaves 
> differently here: it just omits the parentheses on regular citations in 
> footnotes. That may be due to the fact that "author in-text" citations 
> are not a Zotero feature yet, but I thought it may be worth pointing 
> that out anyway. Don't know though if that discrepancy has any real 
> consequenses.

I'm less worried about matching citeproc-js, more worried about
getting output that looks right.  Just emitting regular citations
in notes without any punctuation is going to give really bad
results in many cases.

Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Denis Maier]

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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Sure, getting the output right should be the main priority. Just let me mention that CSL 1.1 will add support for author-in-text citations. Maybe that should be taken into account. 
-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: John MacFarlane <jgm@berkeley.edu> Datum: 06.11.20  19:08  (GMT+01:00) An: Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>, pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011@reagle.org> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes Denis Maier <denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> writes:> John, I've seen you've already implemented that change in the current > release. Just one note: I've realized that citeproc-js behaves > differently here: it just omits the parentheses on regular citations in > footnotes. That may be due to the fact that "author in-text" citations > are not a Zotero feature yet, but I thought it may be worth pointing > that out anyway. Don't know though if that discrepancy has any real > consequenses.I'm less worried about matching citeproc-js, more worried aboutgetting output that looks right.  Just emitting regular citationsin notes without any punctuation is going to give really badresults in many cases.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF5qMzOjczn9V@public.gmane.org view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m2mtzuiciu.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Brian Hamilton]

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Thanks again, all, for making some of these changes. I just re-ran some of the essays I’d been writing with the new release, and it works like a charm.

The one thing I’m still noticing is that the changes do not apply to citations in which the author has been suppressed. Thus a note like this:

[^finnsources]: Finn first laid out his proposal in -@finn2016. He drew there on some ideas already articulated in his edited volume, -@finn2014, and has recently developed the idea more systematically in a new edited volume called -@finn2020...

comes out like this:



Would it cause further difficulties to apply the same fix to author-suppressed citations?

Brian
On Nov 10, 2020, 11:46 AM -0500, 'Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>, wrote:
> Sure, getting the output right should be the main priority. Just let me mention that CSL 1.1 will add support for author-in-text citations. Maybe that should be taken into account.
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> Datum: 06.11.20 19:08 (GMT+01:00)
> An: Denis Maier <denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, Joseph Reagle <joseph.2011-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>
> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes
>
> Denis Maier <denismaier-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > John, I've seen you've already implemented that change in the current
> > release. Just one note: I've realized that citeproc-js behaves
> > differently here: it just omits the parentheses on regular citations in
> > footnotes. That may be due to the fact that "author in-text" citations
> > are not a Zotero feature yet, but I thought it may be worth pointing
> > that out anyway. Don't know though if that discrepancy has any real
> > consequenses.
>
> I'm less worried about matching citeproc-js, more worried about
> getting output that looks right.  Just emitting regular citations
> in notes without any punctuation is going to give really bad
> results in many cases.
>
> --
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[bdh]

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Thanks again, all, for making some of these changes. I just re-ran some of 
the essays I’d been writing with the new release, and it works like a charm.

The one thing I’m still noticing is that the changes do *not* apply to 
citations in which the author has been suppressed. Thus a note like this:

[^finnsources]: Finn first laid out his proposal in -@finn2016. He drew 
there on some ideas already articulated in his edited volume, -@finn2014, 
and has recently developed the idea more systematically in a new edited 
volume called -@finn2020...

comes out like this:

[image: Screen Shot 2020-11-10 at 1.20.10 PM.png]

Would it cause further difficulties to apply the same fix to 
author-suppressed citations?

Brian
On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 11:46:43 AM UTC-5 Denis Maier wrote:

> Sure, getting the output right should be the main priority. Just let me 
> mention that CSL 1.1 will add support for author-in-text citations. Maybe 
> that should be taken into account. 
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: John MacFarlane <j...-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> 
> Datum: 06.11.20 19:08 (GMT+01:00) 
> An: Denis Maier <denis...-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, 
> Joseph Reagle <josep...-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> 
> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes 
>
> Denis Maier <denis...-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > John, I've seen you've already implemented that change in the current 
> > release. Just one note: I've realized that citeproc-js behaves 
> > differently here: it just omits the parentheses on regular citations in 
> > footnotes. That may be due to the fact that "author in-text" citations 
> > are not a Zotero feature yet, but I thought it may be worth pointing 
> > that out anyway. Don't know though if that discrepancy has any real 
> > consequenses.
>
> I'm less worried about matching citeproc-js, more worried about
> getting output that looks right.  Just emitting regular citations
> in notes without any punctuation is going to give really bad
> results in many cases.
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "pandoc-discuss" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m2mtzuiciu.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
> .
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

I see why this behavior would be desirable.

One problem is that currently pandoc produces exactly the same
parsed structure for -@finn2016 and [-@finn2016].
So there is no way to distinguish between the case in which
you used brackets and the case where you didn't.

I'd suggest putting a request on the pandoc bug tracker.
We need to think about this more.

bdh <bdhamilton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Thanks again, all, for making some of these changes. I just re-ran some of 
> the essays I’d been writing with the new release, and it works like a charm.
>
> The one thing I’m still noticing is that the changes do *not* apply to 
> citations in which the author has been suppressed. Thus a note like this:
>
> [^finnsources]: Finn first laid out his proposal in -@finn2016. He drew 
> there on some ideas already articulated in his edited volume, -@finn2014, 
> and has recently developed the idea more systematically in a new edited 
> volume called -@finn2020...
>
> comes out like this:
>
> [image: Screen Shot 2020-11-10 at 1.20.10 PM.png]
>
> Would it cause further difficulties to apply the same fix to 
> author-suppressed citations?
>
> Brian
> On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 11:46:43 AM UTC-5 Denis Maier wrote:
>
>> Sure, getting the output right should be the main priority. Just let me 
>> mention that CSL 1.1 will add support for author-in-text citations. Maybe 
>> that should be taken into account. 
>>
>>
>> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
>> Von: John MacFarlane <j...-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> 
>> Datum: 06.11.20 19:08 (GMT+01:00) 
>> An: Denis Maier <denis...-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, 
>> Joseph Reagle <josep...-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> 
>> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes 
>>
>> Denis Maier <denis...-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>>
>> > John, I've seen you've already implemented that change in the current 
>> > release. Just one note: I've realized that citeproc-js behaves 
>> > differently here: it just omits the parentheses on regular citations in 
>> > footnotes. That may be due to the fact that "author in-text" citations 
>> > are not a Zotero feature yet, but I thought it may be worth pointing 
>> > that out anyway. Don't know though if that discrepancy has any real 
>> > consequenses.
>>
>> I'm less worried about matching citeproc-js, more worried about
>> getting output that looks right.  Just emitting regular citations
>> in notes without any punctuation is going to give really bad
>> results in many cases.
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "pandoc-discuss" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m2mtzuiciu.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net
>> .
>>
>
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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[Denis Maier]

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Denis Maier' via pandoc-discuss]

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I'll add a proposal for additional citation modes in CSL soon. Don't know yet, but that could be a solution here.
-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------Von: John MacFarlane <jgm@berkeley.edu> Datum: 11.11.20  19:07  (GMT+01:00) An: bdh <bdhamilton-Re5JQEeQqe8@public.gmane.orgm>, pandoc-discuss <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes I see why this behavior would be desirable.One problem is that currently pandoc produces exactly the sameparsed structure for -@finn2016 and [-@finn2016].So there is no way to distinguish between the case in whichyou used brackets and the case where you didn't.I'd suggest putting a request on the pandoc bug tracker.We need to think about this more.bdh <bdhamilton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:> Thanks again, all, for making some of these changes. I just re-ran some of > the essays I’d been writing with the new release, and it works like a charm.>> The one thing I’m still noticing is that the changes do *not* apply to > citations in which the author has been suppressed. Thus a note like this:>> [^finnsources]: Finn first laid out his proposal in -@finn2016. He drew > there on some ideas already articulated in his edited volume, -@finn2014, > and has recently developed the idea more systematically in a new edited > volume called -@finn2020...>> comes out like this:>> [image: Screen Shot 2020-11-10 at 1.20.10 PM.png]>> Would it cause further difficulties to apply the same fix to > author-suppressed citations?>> Brian> On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 11:46:43 AM UTC-5 Denis Maier wrote:>>> Sure, getting the output right should be the main priority. Just let me >> mention that CSL 1.1 will add support for author-in-text citations. Maybe >> that should be taken into account. >>>>>> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -------->> Von: John MacFarlane <j...-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> >> Datum: 06.11.20 19:08 (GMT+01:00) >> An: Denis Maier <denis...-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>, pandoc-...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, >> Joseph Reagle <josep...-T1oY19WcHSwdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org> >> Betreff: Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes >>>> Denis Maier <denis...-cl+VPiYnx/1AfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org> writes:>>>> > John, I've seen you've already implemented that change in the current >> > release. Just one note: I've realized that citeproc-js behaves >> > differently here: it just omits the parentheses on regular citations in >> > footnotes. That may be due to the fact that "author in-text" citations >> > are not a Zotero feature yet, but I thought it may be worth pointing >> > that out anyway. Don't know though if that discrepancy has any real >> > consequenses.>>>> I'm less worried about matching citeproc-js, more worried about>> getting output that looks right.  Just emitting regular citations>> in notes without any punctuation is going to give really bad>> results in many cases.>>>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "pandoc-discuss" group.>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to pandoc-discus...-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org>> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m2mtzuiciu.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>> .>>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/7c4093a2-ef90-4452-8516-33526ec2028bn%40googlegroups.com.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF5qMzOjczn9V@public.gmane.org view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/m2r1ozlqco.fsf%40MacBook-Pro.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

Brian Hamilton <bdhamilton-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Thanks again, all, for making some of these changes. I just re-ran some of the essays I’d been writing with the new release, and it works like a charm.
>
> The one thing I’m still noticing is that the changes do not apply to citations in which the author has been suppressed. Thus a note like this:
>
> [^finnsources]: Finn first laid out his proposal in -@finn2016. He drew there on some ideas already articulated in his edited volume, -@finn2014, and has recently developed the idea more systematically in a new edited volume called -@finn2020...
>
> comes out like this:
>
>
>
> Would it cause further difficulties to apply the same fix to author-suppressed citations?

This is being discussed in another thread:
https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/T2-J5RJmVU4/m/ZcXj1sGAAQAJ

With -@finn2014 I think it would be reasonable to handle it in
the way you suggest, just rendering the citation without
punctuation (when it occurs in a note, in a note style).

But we probably don't want to treat [-@finn:2014] the same way.

And the problem is that pandoc parses -@finn:2014 and
[-@finn:2014] to nearly the same structure

 % pandoc -t native
-@finn:2014
[Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "finn:2014", citationPrefix = [], citationSuffix = [], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 1, citationHash = 0}] [Str "@finn:2014"]]]

% pandoc -t native
[-@finn:2014]
[Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "finn:2014", citationPrefix = [], citationSuffix = [], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 1, citationHash = 0}] [Str "[-@finn:2014]"]]]

The only way to distinguish these is to look at the raw content
and check for a bracket (which, now that I think of it, might work).

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

['Till Grallert' via pandoc-discuss]

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I am late to the discussion and to this Google group. But since I was 
struck by unexpected behaviour after migrating from pandoc-citeproc to 
citeproc, I would like to share two observations. First, if, as per the 
pandoc manual, “Markdown citations go inside square brackets and are 
separated by semicolons” then recommending the following for citations in 
footnotes without parentheses is not a valid markdown citation: 

[^note]: See @doe for xyz.

Second, this all seems to be an extension of CSL without calling it such. 
Namely, I have to decide on the styling of a citation (i.e. whether or not 
to wrap the formatted output in parentheses) in my markdown source and not 
by applying a CSL style.

I might have gotten the discussion entirely wrong, in which case I 
apologise for bothering you. 

On Sunday, November 15, 2020 at 6:31:25 PM UTC+1 John MacFarlane wrote:

> Brian Hamilton <bdham...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
> > Thanks again, all, for making some of these changes. I just re-ran some 
> of the essays I’d been writing with the new release, and it works like a 
> charm.
> >
> > The one thing I’m still noticing is that the changes do not apply to 
> citations in which the author has been suppressed. Thus a note like this:
> >
> > [^finnsources]: Finn first laid out his proposal in -@finn2016. He drew 
> there on some ideas already articulated in his edited volume, -@finn2014, 
> and has recently developed the idea more systematically in a new edited 
> volume called -@finn2020...
> >
> > comes out like this:
> >
> >
> >
> > Would it cause further difficulties to apply the same fix to 
> author-suppressed citations?
>
> This is being discussed in another thread:
> https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/T2-J5RJmVU4/m/ZcXj1sGAAQAJ
>
> With -@finn2014 I think it would be reasonable to handle it in
> the way you suggest, just rendering the citation without
> punctuation (when it occurs in a note, in a note style).
>
> But we probably don't want to treat [-@finn:2014] the same way.
>
> And the problem is that pandoc parses -@finn:2014 and
> [-@finn:2014] to nearly the same structure
>
> % pandoc -t native
> -@finn:2014
> [Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "finn:2014", citationPrefix = [], 
> citationSuffix = [], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 1, 
> citationHash = 0}] [Str "@finn:2014"]]]
>
> % pandoc -t native
> [-@finn:2014]
> [Para [Cite [Citation {citationId = "finn:2014", citationPrefix = [], 
> citationSuffix = [], citationMode = SuppressAuthor, citationNoteNum = 1, 
> citationHash = 0}] [Str "[-@finn:2014]"]]]
>
> The only way to distinguish these is to look at the raw content
> and check for a bracket (which, now that I think of it, might work).
>

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Re: Removing parentheses around citations in footnotes

[John MacFarlane]

"'Till Grallert' via pandoc-discuss"
<pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> writes:

> I am late to the discussion and to this Google group. But since I was 
> struck by unexpected behaviour after migrating from pandoc-citeproc to 
> citeproc, I would like to share two observations. First, if, as per the 
> pandoc manual, “Markdown citations go inside square brackets and are 
> separated by semicolons” then recommending the following for citations in 
> footnotes without parentheses is not a valid markdown citation: 
>
> [^note]: See @doe for xyz.

You just didn't read far enough in the manual.  Read the
description of "in-text" citation syntax.

> Second, this all seems to be an extension of CSL without calling it such. 
> Namely, I have to decide on the styling of a citation (i.e. whether or not 
> to wrap the formatted output in parentheses) in my markdown source and not 
> by applying a CSL style.

No, precisely the opposite. Pandoc is designed so that you can
use the same source and just change the style (even from
author-date to note).

CSL doesn't really deal with the case where citations occur
inside notes in note styles.  (There is some discussion of this
in CSL forums, see the links in this thread.)  CSL is designed
to produce the content of a single complete footnote
corresponding to the citation.

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