Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[William Lupton]

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Hello,

It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought within
quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this didn't make any
difference. Putting a space before it avoids the behaviour... but I don't
want a space!

Thanks,
William

% pandoc -v
pandoc 2.14.0.3

% cat question.md
'-'?

% pandoc question.md
<p>‘-’?</p>

% pandoc --citeproc question.md
<p>‘-?’</p>

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[William Lupton]

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I meant also to ask whether it might be possible for the "try pandoc" site
to allow additional command-line options to be specified? Perhaps just a
fixed set (in addition to the current from, to and standalone)?

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 at 12:37, William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought
> within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this didn't
> make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the behaviour... but
> I don't want a space!
>
> Thanks,
> William
>
> % pandoc -v
> pandoc 2.14.0.3
>
> % cat question.md
> '-'?
>
> % pandoc question.md
> <p>‘-’?</p>
>
> % pandoc --citeproc question.md
> <p>‘-?’</p>
>

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[gnpan]

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This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata 
lang=en-GB as suggested here <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005> or 
add a zero-width-space as mentioned here 
<https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>.


On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:

> Hello,
>
> It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought 
> within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this didn't 
> make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the behaviour... but 
> I don't want a space!
>
> Thanks,
> William
>
> % pandoc -v
> pandoc 2.14.0.3
>
> % cat question.md 
> '-'?
>
> % pandoc question.md 
> <p>‘-’?</p>
>
> % pandoc --citeproc question.md 
> <p>‘-?’</p>
>

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[William Lupton]

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Thanks. I'll look into that. But isn't it a bit strange that this is
happening in a document with no citations?

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, 18:47 gnpan, <g.panayotou-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata
> lang=en-GB as suggested here <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005> or
> add a zero-width-space as mentioned here
> <https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>.
>
>
> On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought
>> within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this didn't
>> make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the behaviour... but
>> I don't want a space!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> William
>>
>> % pandoc -v
>> pandoc 2.14.0.3
>>
>> % cat question.md
>> '-'?
>>
>> % pandoc question.md
>> <p>‘-’?</p>
>>
>> % pandoc --citeproc question.md
>> <p>‘-?’</p>
>>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/b35ebef4-358f-4542-8dda-d68a7c1ab3fan%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/b35ebef4-358f-4542-8dda-d68a7c1ab3fan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[William Lupton]

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Oh, thanks for the references. I see that this behaviour is well understood
and well explained. I should have checked...

On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, 20:55 William Lupton, <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> Thanks. I'll look into that. But isn't it a bit strange that this is
> happening in a document with no citations?
>
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, 18:47 gnpan, <g.panayotou-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata
>> lang=en-GB as suggested here <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005> or
>> add a zero-width-space as mentioned here
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>
>> .
>>
>>
>> On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought
>>> within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this didn't
>>> make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the behaviour... but
>>> I don't want a space!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> William
>>>
>>> % pandoc -v
>>> pandoc 2.14.0.3
>>>
>>> % cat question.md
>>> '-'?
>>>
>>> % pandoc question.md
>>> <p>‘-’?</p>
>>>
>>> % pandoc --citeproc question.md
>>> <p>‘-?’</p>
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "pandoc-discuss" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/b35ebef4-358f-4542-8dda-d68a7c1ab3fan%40googlegroups.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-discuss/b35ebef4-358f-4542-8dda-d68a7c1ab3fan%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
>

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[Rik]

On 6/25/2021 13:47, gnpan wrote:
> This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata 
> lang=en-GB as suggested here 
> <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005> or add a zero-width-space as 
> mentioned here 
> <https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>.
> 
> 
> On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:
> 
>     Hello,
> 
>     It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought
>     within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this
>     didn't make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the
>     behaviour... but I don't want a space!
> 
>     Thanks,
>     William
> 
>     % pandoc -v
>     pandoc 2.14.0.3
> 
>     % cat question.md
>     '-'?
> 
>     % pandoc question.md
>     <p>‘-’?</p>
> 
>     % pandoc --citeproc question.md
>     <p>‘-?’</p>
> 


US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a 
quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that 
the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, 
US practice supports both.
   Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default 
position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
   If CSL US locale processing is mangling this by moving both large and 
small marks in every case, then CSL processing is creating some new 
standard. I would suggest that if the proper position cannot be 
programmatically determined it should default to what the writer writes.
   Quotation marks are used for other things than quotations. Indeed, 
the use in citation processing is such another use. Again the writer 
must be trusted to place punctuation properly in context. A.J. Liebling 
wrote ‘Do You Belong in Journalism?’ in 1960; did he write it in his 
regular column ‘The Wayward Press’?
   The behavior identified here takes place outside of citation 
processing. The OP is rightly surprised that it results in changes 
beyond that scope.

-- 
Rik

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[gnpan]

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This problem was introduced with citeproc, which applies the style to the 
whole document, not just citations - it didn't occur with older versions of 
pandoc that used pandoc-citeproc. According to Jim 
<https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005#issuecomment-754179054>, it 
would be tricky to fix this without causing problems with note citations. 

On Saturday, 26 June 2021 at 00:25:14 UTC+3 amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:

> On 6/25/2021 13:47, gnpan wrote:
> > This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata 
> > lang=en-GB as suggested here 
> > <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005> or add a zero-width-space 
> as 
> > mentioned here 
> > <https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ
> >.
> > 
> > 
> > On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought
> > within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this
> > didn't make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the
> > behaviour... but I don't want a space!
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > William
> > 
> > % pandoc -v
> > pandoc 2.14.0.3
> > 
> > % cat question.md
> > '-'?
> > 
> > % pandoc question.md
> > <p>‘-’?</p>
> > 
> > % pandoc --citeproc question.md
> > <p>‘-?’</p>
> > 
>
>
> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a 
> quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that 
> the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, 
> US practice supports both.
> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default 
> position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
> If CSL US locale processing is mangling this by moving both large and 
> small marks in every case, then CSL processing is creating some new 
> standard. I would suggest that if the proper position cannot be 
> programmatically determined it should default to what the writer writes.
> Quotation marks are used for other things than quotations. Indeed, 
> the use in citation processing is such another use. Again the writer 
> must be trusted to place punctuation properly in context. A.J. Liebling 
> wrote ‘Do You Belong in Journalism?’ in 1960; did he write it in his 
> regular column ‘The Wayward Press’?
> The behavior identified here takes place outside of citation 
> processing. The OP is rightly surprised that it results in changes 
> beyond that scope.
>
> -- 
> Rik
>
>

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[gnpan]

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sorry, meant jgm (or John)

On Saturday, 26 June 2021 at 09:18:47 UTC+3 gnpan wrote:

> This problem was introduced with citeproc, which applies the style to the 
> whole document, not just citations - it didn't occur with older versions of 
> pandoc that used pandoc-citeproc. According to Jim 
> <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005#issuecomment-754179054>, it 
> would be tricky to fix this without causing problems with note citations. 
>
> On Saturday, 26 June 2021 at 00:25:14 UTC+3 amph...-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote:
>
>> On 6/25/2021 13:47, gnpan wrote: 
>> > This is a csl locale issue, US is default. You can try --metadata 
>> > lang=en-GB as suggested here 
>> > <https://github.com/jgm/pandoc/issues/7005> or add a zero-width-space 
>> as 
>> > mentioned here 
>> > <
>> https://groups.google.com/g/pandoc-discuss/c/NiFPVF9TeCg/m/9pHluL3iAgAJ>. 
>>
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Friday, 25 June 2021 at 14:38:07 UTC+3 William Lupton wrote: 
>> > 
>> > Hello, 
>> > 
>> > It seems that adding --citeproc causes a question mark to be brought 
>> > within quotes, which I didn't expect. I tried escaping it but this 
>> > didn't make any difference. Putting a space before it avoids the 
>> > behaviour... but I don't want a space! 
>> > 
>> > Thanks, 
>> > William 
>> > 
>> > % pandoc -v 
>> > pandoc 2.14.0.3 
>> > 
>> > % cat question.md 
>> > '-'? 
>> > 
>> > % pandoc question.md 
>> > <p>‘-’?</p> 
>> > 
>> > % pandoc --citeproc question.md 
>> > <p>‘-?’</p> 
>> > 
>>
>>
>> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a 
>> quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that 
>> the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, 
>> US practice supports both. 
>> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default 
>> position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content. 
>> If CSL US locale processing is mangling this by moving both large and 
>> small marks in every case, then CSL processing is creating some new 
>> standard. I would suggest that if the proper position cannot be 
>> programmatically determined it should default to what the writer writes. 
>> Quotation marks are used for other things than quotations. Indeed, 
>> the use in citation processing is such another use. Again the writer 
>> must be trusted to place punctuation properly in context. A.J. Liebling 
>> wrote ‘Do You Belong in Journalism?’ in 1960; did he write it in his 
>> regular column ‘The Wayward Press’? 
>> The behavior identified here takes place outside of citation 
>> processing. The OP is rightly surprised that it results in changes 
>> beyond that scope. 
>>
>> -- 
>> Rik 
>>
>>

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Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[John MacFarlane]

In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can
change the attribute punctuation-in-quote on the style element
of your style to 'false'. That will disable all punctuation
moving around quotes.

Another option (if you just have a few special cases where
you want to defeat this behavior) might be using a zero-width
unicode space.

I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should
only affect citations, not other parts of the document.  I
can't recall at the moment why I implemented it this way.
If someone wants to put up an issue at
https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed
citations, I'll look into it.

AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0]

Hi,

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change the attribute
> punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style to 'false'. That will
> disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
> 
> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want to defeat
> this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
> 
> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only affect
> citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall at the moment why I
> implemented it this way.

I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed for switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?

FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by Rik:

> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, US practice supports both.
> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.

This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically aware punctuation moving mechanism (see https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, with the first implementation about here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html
There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or less) on this:

>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
 > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>
> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines,
> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside
> the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html)

I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.

Denis


> If someone wants to put up an issue at
> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, I'll look
> into it.
> 
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> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[John MacFarlane]

<denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:

>>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>>
>> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines,
>> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside
>> the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html)
>
> I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.

Can't say I like that much.  It's not intuitive at all what effect
this would have, and aesthetically the lack of the space in the
source is ugly and looks like a mistake.

Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[John MacFarlane]

Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation
inside quotes transformation:

    pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
      #1:                                                            FAIL (0.08s)
        --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
        +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations
        +   1 Here is a "test citation".[^1]
        -   1 Here is a "test citation."[^1]

I can look into whether I can target this better so it only
affects citations.

Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed
that the CSL spec just says to bring , and . inside. I can change
that.

<denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
>> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
>> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
>> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
>> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
>> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
>> 
>> 
>> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change the attribute
>> punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style to 'false'. That will
>> disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
>> 
>> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want to defeat
>> this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
>> 
>> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only affect
>> citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall at the moment why I
>> implemented it this way.
>
> I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
> 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
> 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed for switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?
>
> FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by Rik:
>
>> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, US practice supports both.
>> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
>
> This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically aware punctuation moving mechanism (see https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
> Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, with the first implementation about here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html
> There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or less) on this:
>
>>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>>
>> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines,
>> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside
>> the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html)
>
> I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.
>
> Denis
>
>
>> If someone wants to put up an issue at
>> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
>> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, I'll look
>> into it.
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "pandoc-discuss" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-
>> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[John MacFarlane]

OK, I've just pushed a couple commits that should improve
matters. Further testing is of course welcome.


John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation
> inside quotes transformation:
>
>     pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
>       #1:                                                            FAIL (0.08s)
>         --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
>         +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations
>         +   1 Here is a "test citation".[^1]
>         -   1 Here is a "test citation."[^1]
>
> I can look into whether I can target this better so it only
> affects citations.
>
> Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed
> that the CSL spec just says to bring , and . inside. I can change
> that.
>
> <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
>>> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
>>> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
>>> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
>>> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change the attribute
>>> punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style to 'false'. That will
>>> disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
>>> 
>>> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want to defeat
>>> this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
>>> 
>>> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only affect
>>> citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall at the moment why I
>>> implemented it this way.
>>
>> I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
>> 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
>> 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed for switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?
>>
>> FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by Rik:
>>
>>> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, US practice supports both.
>>> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default position (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
>>
>> This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically aware punctuation moving mechanism (see https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
>> Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, with the first implementation about here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html
>> There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or less) on this:
>>
>>>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>>  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>>>
>>> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines,
>>> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside
>>> the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html)
>>
>> I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.
>>
>> Denis
>>
>>
>>> If someone wants to put up an issue at
>>> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
>>> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, I'll look
>>> into it.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "pandoc-discuss" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-
>>> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 01:00
> An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-
> discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org;
> amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:
> 
> >>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> >  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> >>
> >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation
> >> determines, according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go
> >> inside or outside the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou,
> >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.htm
> >> l)
> >
> > I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for
> pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.
> 
> Can't say I like that much.  It's not intuitive at all what effect this would have,
> and aesthetically the lack of the space in the source is ugly and looks like a
> mistake.

Fair enough. Do you have other suggestions how this distinction could be handled? 

Somewhere buried in this thread you'll find other suggestions like:

Escape a period not to be moved inside the quotes: 
"A quotation ending without punctuation" [@doe]\.
 "A quotation ending with a period" [@doe].

Use a bar prevent punctuation from moving across that barrier:
"A quotation ending without punctuation"| [@doe].
 "A quotation ending with a period" [@doe].

Denis

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AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 01:55
> An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-
> discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org;
> amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation inside quotes
> transformation:
> 
>     pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
>       #1:                                                            FAIL (0.08s)
>         --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
>         +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations
>         +   1 Here is a "test citation".[^1]
>         -   1 Here is a "test citation."[^1]
> 
> I can look into whether I can target this better so it only affects citations.
> 
> Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed that the CSL spec
> just says to bring , and . inside. I can change that.

Oh, I have probably been confused and confusing... Clearly, regarding citations we should of course abide by the spec, and revise that if necessary. (Here, I think the problem is not so severe since we usually don't have question marks or exclamation marks that are not part of the title. Punctuation that is used to separate bibliographic elements are usally periods or commas anyway.)

But, in with quotations there are a lot of border cases. Like the behaviour prescribed by the Chicago Manual of Style: Put periods and commas inside quotation marks in all cases, but question marks and exclamation marks only if they appear in the quoted matter, i.e. in the original source. And, with German and British: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was there in the quoted matter. Sometimes there's even a further restriction: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was there in the quoted matter, and if we're quoting a complete sentence.

Denis


> 
> <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
> >> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
> >> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
> >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> >> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> >>
> >>
> >> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change
> >> the attribute punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style
> >> to 'false'. That will disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
> >>
> >> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want
> >> to defeat this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
> >>
> >> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only
> >> affect citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall at
> >> the moment why I implemented it this way.
> >
> > I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
> > 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
> > 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed for
> switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?
> >
> > FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas,
> which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable
> which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by
> Rik:
> >
> >> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a
> quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that the
> large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who, me?”). So, US practice
> supports both.
> >> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default position
> (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
> >
> > This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically
> aware punctuation moving mechanism (see
> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already
> https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
> > Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list,
> > with the first implementation about here:
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html
> > There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or less)
> on this:
> >
> >>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> >  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> >>
> >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation
> >> determines, according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go
> >> inside or outside the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou,
> >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.htm
> >> l)
> >
> > I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit for
> pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> >
> >> If someone wants to put up an issue at
> >> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
> >> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations,
> >> I'll look into it.
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >> send an email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc-
> >> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.

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AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> Im Auftrag von denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 10:55
> An: jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org; pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org;
> wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org; amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 01:55
> > An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-
> > discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org;
> > amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> > Betreff: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> >
> >
> > Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation inside
> > quotes
> > transformation:
> >
> >     pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
> >       #1:                                                            FAIL (0.08s)
> >         --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md
> >         +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations
> >         +   1 Here is a "test citation".[^1]
> >         -   1 Here is a "test citation."[^1]
> >
> > I can look into whether I can target this better so it only affects citations.
> >
> > Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed that the
> > CSL spec just says to bring , and . inside. I can change that.
> 
> Oh, I have probably been confused and confusing... Clearly, regarding citations
> we should of course abide by the spec, and revise that if necessary. (Here, I
> think the problem is not so severe since we usually don't have question marks
> or exclamation marks that are not part of the title. Punctuation that is used to
> separate bibliographic elements are usally periods or commas anyway.)

Addendum: I should have checked the spec first: Yes, it clearly only talks about periods and commas.

> 
> But, in with quotations there are a lot of border cases. Like the behaviour
> prescribed by the Chicago Manual of Style: Put periods and commas inside
> quotation marks in all cases, but question marks and exclamation marks only if
> they appear in the quoted matter, i.e. in the original source. And, with German
> and British: Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was
> there in the quoted matter. Sometimes there's even a further restriction:
> Punctuation should only appear inside quotation marks when it was there in the
> quoted matter, and if we're quoting a complete sentence.
> 
> Denis
> 
> 
> >
> > <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > >> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org
> > >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane
> > >> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22
> > >> An: William Lupton <wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-discuss
> > >> <pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org>
> > >> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change
> > >> the attribute punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your
> > >> style to 'false'. That will disable all punctuation moving around quotes.
> > >>
> > >> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want
> > >> to defeat this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space.
> > >>
> > >> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only
> > >> affect citations, not other parts of the document.  I can't recall
> > >> at the moment why I implemented it this way.
> > >
> > > I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons:
> > > 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc.
> > > 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also
> > > needed for
> > switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right?
> > >
> > > FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and
> > > commas,
> > which will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made
> > configurable which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the
> > problem brought up by
> > Rik:
> > >
> > >> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks
> > >> of a
> > quotation and  larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case
> > that the large punctuation is part of the quoted material (“Who,
> > me?”). So, US practice supports both.
> > >> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a
> > >> default position
> > (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content.
> > >
> > > This brings up the older question of whether we need a more
> > > semantically
> > aware punctuation moving mechanism (see
> > https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues/6 and already
> > https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354).
> > > Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode
> > > list, with the first implementation about here:
> > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.ht
> > > ml There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled
> > > (more or less)
> > on this:
> > >
> > >>  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> > >  > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> > >>
> > >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation
> > >> determines, according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go
> > >> inside or outside the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou,
> > >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.h
> > >> tm
> > >> l)
> > >
> > > I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a
> > > good fit for
> > pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > >
> > >> If someone wants to put up an issue at
> > >> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues
> > >> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed
> > >> citations, I'll look into it.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > >> Groups "pandoc-discuss" group.
> > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
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Re: AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[John MacFarlane]

Not really fair of me to criticize the proposed solution
without presenting another!  Let me think about it.

<denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> writes:

> Fair enough. Do you have other suggestions how this distinction could be handled? 
>
> Somewhere buried in this thread you'll find other suggestions like:
>
> Escape a period not to be moved inside the quotes: 
> "A quotation ending without punctuation" [@doe]\.
>  "A quotation ending with a period" [@doe].
>
> Use a bar prevent punctuation from moving across that barrier:
> "A quotation ending without punctuation"| [@doe].
>  "A quotation ending with a period" [@doe].
>
> Denis

AW: AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?

[denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: John MacFarlane <jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. Juni 2021 19:27
> An: Maier, Denis Christian (UB) <denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org>; pandoc-
> discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org;
> amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org
> Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes?
> 
> 
> Not really fair of me to criticize the proposed solution without presenting
> another!  Let me think about it.
>

So, anything new about this? Do you have a suggestion for a better solution?

I was thinking about playing with something like this:
[a quotation]{.quotation final-punct="." source="doe" suffix="p. 45"}
It should be easy enough to deal with this with a filter, but the syntax is obviously rather verbose.

Denis

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