From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/28709 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John MacFarlane Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:26 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1b63b1d8bacf454e9db84a056d06a00f@unibe.ch> Reply-To: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40129"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: denis.maier-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org, pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org, wlupton-QSt+ys/nuMyEUIsrzH9SikB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org, amphiboly-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: pandoc-discuss+bncBCJZJHG45QDBBUXM5KDAMGQESZORQYQ-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Tue Jun 29 07:57:42 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from mail-yb1-f186.google.com ([209.85.219.186]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ly6kf-000AIa-Uv for gtp-pandoc-discuss@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 07:57:41 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-f186.google.com with SMTP id g3-20020a256b030000b0290551bbd99700sf19648703ybc.6 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:41 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1624946260; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=Fiak05T7kqMW53d6NSlvWJ/ooQr1PrjcdQ3hoPYtYpjcJ+3nMQBps5Nuapj78SCTKC p6R3V+O1106m3zqmcKydwl6Chkq0PIVTFDMclZ+rWlbQETlCGj7ju7r6zywFkoPTk7Oa gZ5kex9knnsLCnpGe36af3eogydGrsx4jp76UjuIAo5ebnEf8SP3dfgIZYYEgoD9Qj5Z TUjtNbuC/H1LPkQ5wEDB1I14zhiYxAGOP9XgQ8baX8joLch0rjFDRhfqLa53V6zdfuoO 6nPI3TymGE6fjFgkhjd+mdCZ7G0Grpo/+2gh8EFuq6ZK87l18OsSF/E02i70pAlk9yQ1 oJZA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:message-id:date:references:in-reply-to:subject:to:from :sender:dkim-signature; bh=Da54uevzowjT4OCbdBXiIg4iGLq/7re91xrl+eF4Ros=; b=zeWTctELpKThV2atcXY13bZ08OUkgtqW3idM/xnxN8cSQP/ApzRXKKKLHQlI1Q52ya jYCcWeGETPveXRy6bca1vZOp41G3OROBI7OcM/tO3DYNIQQMTdWImk/LScL4VJ7y+HBK YzuVOQ5DAwoQRfLpAk1JXDZW6/YbB4GFiOspstV/sUnUsBMBETA/maj+1DcEVsWp8MzO 6fzq4UC7GjDlZGr4WaSnRQhB/YsFja1u0uPIVhdNMrB23WZiOzr36iYX1IrdRJ0InEOW mgTRndJzuCj8/ow8kooa3cYmxWBkQtihwZEKUmiHzYqs17LTm4XLq9iIsSGThsf0+82C U0jw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@berkeley-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b="Dx/LSdXq"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::629 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=Da54uevzowjT4OCbdBXiIg4iGLq/7re91xrl+eF4Ros=; b=HTCM2EBaAXXpyfTVkKPEne/ZCXApYlOETesdLpsbQ7mkbn1YecrYkLD9jY1P2bt9Ym /9si/e3CRmwC1aR4NbsHYup0RBIoalGGwoDnpM4dz2C8lPpnuAiX31BqROeZUaTl+14x cnkUvS+9G+Ulmh4KoQxk0fmElMDeaqq+z7m5/wON3tYTXqXlY+fQA3c5+IjOkkC6c8iT /vEhcyGXKkiJKtviJGaeTI9tNT0Ay2BDUw2dLL5m/9OG4UFrb5Ppi3FCb8vOja7VVoaV usRI3AdVhBq0VtEjKLszR5qygkVHkQbSONfpjAXhdZZSPnyKEiP4IkQgq1JUGX8OeJXH y47A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Da54uevzowjT4OCbdBXiIg4iGLq/7re91xrl+eF4Ros=; b=AcMqpr/6nXP8GG6nHbgBwoByFpqZy4tP98iyOMv/9VjqkfecwCuV4dk/EnOzX1edlc UI5JGilwoMOHFgmHXEFUQP4S2vmwmRhHu4Nb8anv6xVpNfttL4RkfDc/AohPXzTjcJVt nd0bazVPE8vYzHDmyPyiNImVu2eRRqPsqk3tTMkT6jCvbswsV7ofu37uAG24B9V7nNRQ Chvsp/LyEBh7TJnPwnjcpdrUze4+9GNr5bR0kSs/rTQBr/w0XySmY34mEkmIDC8Qf+x5 Roo3ja07oRGsVsnY/9knmyFwrUN9zOlOFkUhhTRvdHNQHjEec2jRvJZFC3EV0xC1769Z Original-Sender: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ycOaEBSNQZPhDNgwrnSIvoIDhV91hQBUw+UThOwnpbYw9HVUS G7C0Xd2V1TxPKqgIEHS+82E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/dx8rU41c2aHDoUs277Nxz4CGkGb0MkSKDieuJLyUnuj4ZNS3QTROtbuv2yGwPnoRu7QsXg== X-Received: by 2002:a25:9248:: with SMTP id e8mr33949068ybo.396.1624946260539; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org Original-Received: by 2002:a25:3f06:: with SMTP id m6ls7943yba.6.gmail; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:e788:: with SMTP id e130mr1946894ybh.54.1624946258568; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:38 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1624946258; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=q9wPRpGTpRXBromaojOEi5xJBda4pwnBPQH9VTp7SX3aAd1bEwVI4NhuYLCUlcPAoq KL9xrvdbXOq0IpdEfs6ICjij7LPZzcl4WnTWfWdSpc9g+TzgaR1Lyln349K0LrXkpY+U lw1aPKTZq1wX+r8cptTTQzEvwAsfVJJ1/xTUaCuOKFkpursZg8Su7ZNZsScVbujSBorV XdEfygpK0r/j9YvlLpoLpi/h6xlSEHy7p1RuQ+nNJHXD6ikWqdiH97tp29cQWoSfC6lH lTJYKXRq/LJr0BjbN1+1ERkMrxK/fu/ZBIJFF/kVChwq7x7i/BhXSNjI5pYc9d5gzbHO YQWw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:to:from:dkim-signature; bh=ZjylGvSNQntWY0LNceVTbmizS8JnEkrm1DQwYkNN04Q=; b=Y3AgS4M+gbSv/SOhcLUQH4A92PqFBvyYMOZU3uiWqn3A8dAqb9MLq/xoOccADhVc1S SB5cwGVireScu+pdOZolbHswMZQWOJNRQ00Bn0xcBb78wdGpNgj866iQOhNJUTWOWamY hZK7l9F4wT5igyYrtWt+VZW9vxB5evr8C9kM3JRWJzQBRQC2eNff+LETZFWgS5vfyrMT bre60+dLg0xHUTFFvEpKE8sFv2JxLy3PfziVTkLF63ItPtazJm7iBgY+rbHxo1HWUVVz QKCpwr21dE+DgpCLqUtYWZAlX+/eqd824Fnqws0Q68vRlwk0MiXJOAkTcY43VT7BxuZY p3jg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@berkeley-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b="Dx/LSdXq"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::629 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r9si2577096ybb.1.2021.06.28.22.57.38 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::629 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::629; Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id v12so10281805plo.10 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:f282:b029:124:701f:2fe7 with SMTP id k2-20020a170902f282b0290124701f2fe7mr25881919plc.10.1624946257587; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from johnmacfarlane.net (li55-134.members.linode.com. [74.82.3.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c24sm14410556pfn.86.2021.06.28.22.57.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 28 Jun 2021 22:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by johnmacfarlane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4682AA249; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 01:57:26 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@berkeley-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b="Dx/LSdXq"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::629 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:28709 Archived-At: OK, I've just pushed a couple commits that should improve matters. Further testing is of course welcome. John MacFarlane writes: > Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation > inside quotes transformation: > > pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md > #1: FAIL= (0.08s) > --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md > +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations > + 1 Here is a "test citation".[^1] > - 1 Here is a "test citation."[^1] > > I can look into whether I can target this better so it only > affects citations. > > Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed > that the CSL spec just says to bring , and . inside. I can change > that. > > writes: > >> Hi, >> >>> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org >>> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane >>> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22 >>> An: William Lupton ; pandoc-discuss >>> >>> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change the= attribute >>> punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style to 'false'. Tha= t will >>> disable all punctuation moving around quotes. >>>=20 >>> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want to = defeat >>> this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space. >>>=20 >>> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only affect >>> citations, not other parts of the document. I can't recall at the mome= nt why I >>> implemented it this way. >> >> I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons: >> 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc. >> 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also neede= d for switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right? >> >> FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, w= hich will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurabl= e which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by= Rik: >> >>> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a = quotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that t= he large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?=E2= =80=9D). So, US practice supports both. >>> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default po= sition (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content. >> >> This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically= aware punctuation moving mechanism (see https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/is= sues/6 and already https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354). >> Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, w= ith the first implementation about here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html= /emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html >> There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or l= ess) on this: >> >>> "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. >> > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole]. >>> >>> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines, >>> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outsid= e >>> the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/ema= cs-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html) >> >> I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fi= t for pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here. >> >> Denis >> >> >>> If someone wants to put up an issue at >>> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues >>> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, I= 'll look >>> into it. >>>=20 >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "pandoc-discuss" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send = an >>> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc- >>> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/m2im1xkybd.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.