From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Msuck: nntp://news.gmane.io/gmane.text.pandoc/28708 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John MacFarlane Newsgroups: gmane.text.pandoc Subject: Re: AW: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? 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[74.82.3.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w14sm16230030pjb.3.2021.06.28.16.55.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 28 Jun 2021 16:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by johnmacfarlane.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 56018A249; Mon, 28 Jun 2021 19:55:25 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <1b63b1d8bacf454e9db84a056d06a00f-NSENcxR/0n0@public.gmane.org> X-Original-Sender: jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@berkeley-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=Hrti8wyf; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jgm-TVLZxgkOlNX2fBVCVOL8/A@public.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org; contact pandoc-discuss+owners-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1007024079513 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.text.pandoc:28708 Archived-At: Here's the test that fails if we remove the global punctuation inside quotes transformation: pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md #1: FAIL (= 0.08s) --- test/command/pandoc-citeproc-move-period-inside-quote.md +++ pandoc --citeproc -t markdown-citations + 1 Here is a "test citation".[^1] - 1 Here is a "test citation."[^1] I can look into whether I can target this better so it only affects citations. Also, citeproc brings ! and ? inside quotes; I hadn't noticed that the CSL spec just says to bring , and . inside. I can change that. writes: > Hi, > >> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: pandoc-discuss-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@public.gmane.org >> Im Auftrag von John MacFarlane >> Gesendet: Montag, 28. Juni 2021 19:22 >> An: William Lupton ; pandoc-discuss >> >> Betreff: Re: Citeproc is bringing a question mark inside quotes? >>=20 >>=20 >> In addition to what others have said, I'll note that you can change the = attribute >> punctuation-in-quote on the style element of your style to 'false'. That= will >> disable all punctuation moving around quotes. >>=20 >> Another option (if you just have a few special cases where you want to d= efeat >> this behavior) might be using a zero-width unicode space. >>=20 >> I'm sympathetic to the complaint that this movement should only affect >> citations, not other parts of the document. I can't recall at the momen= t why I >> implemented it this way. > > I don't know for sure, of course, but I guess that has two reasons: > 1. it's been already that way with pandoc-citeproc. > 2. that's been done in the spirit of DRY as this behaviour is also needed= for switching from in-text citation styles to note styles, right? > > FWIW, maybe this behaviour should be restricted to periods and commas, wh= ich will be moved in US English. Or it should be at least made configurable= which punctuation marks get moved. And finally, the problem brought up by = Rik: > >> US practice is to put commas and stops inside the quotation marks of a q= uotation and larger punctuation (?!;:) outside, except in the case that th= e large punctuation is part of the quoted material (=E2=80=9CWho, me?=E2=80= =9D). So, US practice supports both. >> Similarly, British (or UK, or GB) practice places marks in a default pos= ition (outside) but allows them inside based on the semantic content. > > This brings up the older question of whether we need a more semantically = aware punctuation moving mechanism (see https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/iss= ues/6 and already https://github.com/jgm/pandoc-citeproc/issues/354). > Note: There's been a bit of a discussion on this on the org-mode list, wi= th the first implementation about here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/= emacs-orgmode/2021-05/msg00714.html > There's been some back and forth since, and we've now settled (more or le= ss) on this: > >> "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole]. >> >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines, >> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside >> the quotation. (Nicolas Goaziou, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emac= s-orgmode/2021-06/msg00384.html) > > I don't know if that's the best solution, and if that would be a good fit= for pandoc conceptually, but I wanted to at least mention it here. > > Denis > > >> If someone wants to put up an issue at >> https://github.com/jgm/citeproc/issues >> requesting that punctuation movement only affect processed citations, I'= ll look >> into it. >>=20 >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "pandoc-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pandoc- >> discuss/m2eeclnbu5.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= pandoc-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to pandoc-discuss+unsubscribe-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFF+G/Ez6ZCGd0@public.gmane.org To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= pandoc-discuss/m2o8bplf2q.fsf%40MacBook-Pro-2.hsd1.ca.comcast.net.